just read thread.

can't understand why the answers were so formal on an informal platform.

she did treat those answers she did give as Answers for Mothers = Answers for Non-Voters.

very condesending, especially the non-retort on breastfeeding.

it's sad to think these people are running the country!

"I think you could have a more meaningful dialogue with the Monty Python crew in character."

Kind of sums up the whole exercise really, doesn't it?

Please please please can we have that as the quote of the week?

I'd say, from what information I could glean from her responses, that her answers are as follows:

a) She doesnt really know.
b) She doesnt know enough about the case to actually understand how to answer.
c) A combination of the above two answers.

I think you could have a more meaningful dialogue with the Monty Python crew in character.

Thanks VVV, I asked 3 questions:

- What's her remit?
- What about secrecy in family courts (Sally Clarke etc)
- What about courts ordering contact with violent men, which has resulted in the death of women and children

And the response was the number for the helpline, which I a) don't need, I am not in an abusive relationship and b) is irrelevant c) doesn't remotely answer the question.

Ridiculous.

I have to say www, having had 24 hours to think about it, I am far more annoyed at her response to your question in particular than any of the other 'issues'.

I think it was an abysmal response to a Very Serious subject.

hmmmm, i didn't much like being ignored.

Absolutely Aitch, I wouldn't have minded being ignored, being patronised is worse imnsho.

lol www, 'i see that you're on the internet asking me a tough question so if you wanted this DV no you could get it yourself, but let me dodge the issue altogether by talking to you as if you're too thick to google for yourself...'

Cammelia, I get your point about the guilt thing.

I feel guilty when I see starving children on the TV while I'm sitting there eating a big dinner with my children. However, I know it is irrational guilt, because its not my fault. I do not expect charities to stop talking or broadcasting about the issue, just because it makes me feel bad to see it.

Thats the point I'm trying to make. Sometimes we have to take responsibility for our guilt, and not pass the blame on to others because we feel that way.

I do appreciate the strong feelings on here, but to be fair Carrie's original post did say BH would answer questions on childcare, nurseries and pre-schools. Although I completely agree that BH should have clarified her remit once she saw all the questions about bf etc.

Morechoc - I can vouch for the people on here who were asking the tough questions that they are in no way in the business of making mums feel guilty for being unable to bf. And I should know, believe me. Stick around for a while and have a read of the feeding threads and you'll get to know where we're all coming from.

I didn't ask for the number fo the national dom violence helpline fffs.

HANG ON A MINUTE! Er, I wasn't asking the domestic violence question from a personal pov, so I didn't need the answer

"There are helplines throughout the UK that can offer you [MY BOLD ITALICS] practical help and advice including emergency refuge accommodation, safety planning and advice, translation facilities if you have difficulty communicating in English. The number for the English national domestic violence helpline is 0808 2000247"

Er, actually, I am very happily married to someone who is not violent and yep, I know the number should I ever need it but er, thanks for that Beverley.

Well, this was interesting....

I think it answered more of the questions I hadnt actually asked.......

I look forward to speaking with Ivan.

Unless Hunker is made Minister for Breastfeeding in the meantime, which she absolutely should be!

it is ridiculous to suggest that anyone who wants breastfeeding to be more actively promoted and for women to get more support it trying to make formula feeding mothers feel bad. Absolutely ridiculous.Sorry.

btw Barefoot Dancer i was supporting your opinion on the Iraqi children, not disagreeing, sorry if it didn't come across well.

You're right, it does.

I know I'm right, so will leave this thread be now.

Except to say "See you soon, Ivan"

Hunker, the point was that it detracts from the loudness of the message coming across if we are shouting each other down over whether or not a poster is being militant on an issue.

Re this bit of your post, Grrr:

Whoa ladies, stable those high horses please.

In fighting distracts us from our purpose (as any Labour government minister knows).

eh?

No idea - as I said, I've never heard of them! Will research though

hunker with all this new funding for children's services surely they'll be a job for you at your new nearest children's centre? are you getting one?

Grrr, I'm able to debate this on this thread AND do things off-board re getting higher profile and better publicity for bf support and training

KezzaG, thank you for actually reading my posts

Yes, I specifically said training in counselling skills for midwives and HVs because of the "every baby deserves to be breastfed so feel guilty if you don't want to or can't" and the "oh ffs why on earth are you bothering with that bf ridiculousness, just give him a bottle" attitudes that are SO prevalent these days (the latter more than the former, IME, but I do appreciate that not every HCP is gets the message across re bfing being best in an ideal way...).

i wish i'd asked her why all the middle schools here were shut down to make way for pokey new housing estates and one 2.5 million new children's centre.

the council's have to get in their government quota to what cost

Gordon aka 'creepy' Brown?

I once compared him to Uriah Heep and bugger me if he wasn't 'truly humbled' in his selection speech

Oops, sorry, thought my ealier post had been lost when I hit the wrong key !

eeew. new dangia.

Whoa ladies, stable those high horses please.

In fighting distracts us from our purpose (as any Labour government minister knows).

"Bev" should have just said it wasn't her field and that she'd pass the message on.

Me thinks she is poor at thinking clearly when put on the spot, indeed she had to resign as Immigration Minister some years back when she mislead MPs about a UK visa issue due to not checking her facts before speaking on an hot issue.

Labour are so green and pro -recycling that they even recycle ministers like Beverley back into post after they have been quietly de-toxed somewhere over a period of several years.

No, NewLabia. Please no.

Im coming a bit late to this, but isnnt Hunker suggesting bf support and counselling. If MW's were properly trained, not just in getting nipple into mouth, but in actually supporting and helping new mums they would also be able to help us make decisions about when ff might actually be best and therefore alleviate some of the guilt. this would be vastly different to a HV advocating ff as a first course of action without any other support and help first. If women choose not to bf at all then that is their choice and no one should be pressured into it, but all the facts and help should be available to those that do (even if they find they are unable to)

The unelected Prime Minister (with good taste in names?)?

<faints moistly at the mere mention of his name>

When's Gordon Brown coming on?

<rubs hands>

I decided not to get involved with this thread so I am definitely not standing around sniggering at it

no indeedy

i can confirm that the Minister For Obfuscation And Not Breastfeeding, No Sirree, Can't Think Where You Got That From (to give her full title) is very au fait with the language of 'da street' and does drop her Gs when speaking to you plebs.

Tinymum, reference your post about not feeling guilty if something is out of your control.
If only motherly guilt were that rational.

I feel gulity as a mother about zillions of things that are out of my control.......

Is morechoc Beverely Hughes? Perhaps the dropped Gs are a cunning ruse.

[confused]

PMSL at "The Minister For Obtuse Answers" Jools - there's too much competition for that post in this Government!

jools, i won't hear a word said against her, she was brilliant. it was a virtuoso performance.

Can I just clarify what your "differing opinion" is, since you say you don't want women to stop talking about it or asking for support?

x-posted.

can we go back to slating the Minister for obtuse answers instead of each other

lol, i can confirm that hunker likes nothing more than a differing opinion and is most unlikely to be offended. however that wasn't really the point, was it? your friends who were left on their own to bf and didn't make it might have been better served by having someone like hunker there to demand support for them when they and their bfing were at their most vulnerable rather than everyone sticking their heads in the sand and not talking about bfing for 'fear' of seeming militant. i'm totally militant about it for the next time, btw, i can see i'll have to be, given what i went through first time round.

You've irritated me by suggesting I was being militant by asking questions of a minister who I (mistakenly as it turned out) thought had bfing policy as part of her remit.

And I also don't agree with you saying that breastfeeding shouldn't be spoken about in case it makes mums who didn't bf feel "slated".

"By morechoc on Thu 24-May-07 15:17:05
well -militant attitudes about bfing make the problem worse, mums aren't going to ask for help if they feel they're going to get slated for not being able to bf?"

My overriding point on this thread is there's often nobody to ASK for help, because it's not funded and what is there is undermined by formula companies and their sly marketing tactics.

I am not sure why you are having a go at women who want more support for breastfeeding?

Thanks Custardo. Hunkermunker nothing has upset me and i'm not offended at all but it does seem that i've offended you by voicing a differing opinion - which was kind of my point in the first place. I;m not saying that people should stop asking for support either or to stop talking about it

She did.

I'm sorry if what I've just posted has upset you, Morechoc.

But I don't understand why you'd be trying to stop people asking for more support for women to breastfeed.

she did say she was a new poster.

I think you've been quite patronising, Morechoc, really.

This is a live chat thread, not a breastfeeding support thread.

To come on here saying you've had a good HV, breastfeeding went fine for you, but to ask people not to talk about it in case they upset mums for whom that's not the case - I'm not quite sure what your point is, as I said.

I think i prefer the meaning behind mine!

Why on earth didn't she just say breastfeeding wasn't her remit and that she'd pass the message on ?

Me thinks she is poor at thinking on her feet, after all she had to resign a previous ministership (Immigration) when she misled the house rather than check her facts first.

it is an emotive subject, morechoc, we're all very aware of that, don't worry. and welcome to MN.
anyway, what do you think of my new name? <twirls>

bad habits i think - i don't mean to lecyture anyone it's just an emotive subject that's all - each to their own

ooooh <twitters> i didn't catch a word of that...

I also think on these chat things the people should make clear if they are chatting in their capacity as a person or as a government/ party mouthpiece

That would save a lot of irritation, I feel

aye if thee wants tu. put wood inth 'ole on thee way out lass

don't Ministers have to deal with rude people?

would have thought it's nothing new to them

dae ye wunt me tae dae aw ma typin' in a glesga accent fae now oan, custy?

i would say that becuase shes typing how she talks.

och no one's judging anyone, morechoc, you've got the wrong end of the stick. you really do not need to be lecturing me about sensitivity to 'failing' to bf, especially if it went well for you...
and why are you dropping your Gs but goin' to the effort of replacing them with an apostrophe? [pedant]

I'm not talkin' about making a minister feel bad, i was talkin' about other mums. bf ing went fine for me an' there's nothing to distance myself from. sayin' your op is the point of this chat but bfing is hard subject for some mums (seriously not me) and it's real easy to loose confidence in yourself cause other peoples judgments -

they were on echo because she wasn't answering them. i don't for a mintue think she was sitting there typing herself, but she could have said 'hang on, i'm getting to that' and it would have stopped. it's just basic manners, fgs.

yo hunker - i never said you.

She only had an hour though and there were tons of questions firing at here, some on echo

anyway, Labour are rubbish, what do I care

<<dons Cameron badge>>

but if she'd said 'it's not my remit, you need to speak to Ivan' then that would have had to be an end of it.
or if carrie et al had been briefed that it wasn't her dept when she saw the pre-chat questions.
it's just Stoopid to think that this is our fault. someone from her team should have bothered there arses to clarify her remit from the beginning and they didn't. not our fault. she had ample opportunity to say that she couldn't answer those questions (although in truth she didn't know if it was her dept or not and evidently had to get on the phone to find out.) not impressive.

Actually I don't think it's a particularly bad thing that the feelign might be overpowering

Might make some of these people with real power take some notice if they realise it's a real burning issue

OO, if bfing isn't in her remit, she ought to have said so!

LOL custardo

Yes I've got a groundhog day feeling coming over me...

I'll shut up LOL

And Custardo, on an internet forum, you don't know when somebody else is posting, so the combined effect can seem a bit overpowering.

But I don't think I ranted, and I think I made posted intelligent questions.

the posting style was a tad like a sledghammer cracking a nut

on and on and on and on

and b/f is not her remit, as Carrie says

maybe this other MP will come into the lions den...

its rather carried on though after the initial questions and i think we all know where this thread is going.

get ivan on here. ivan vs hunker

Oh, for heaven's sake!

I was speaking (mistakenly, it transpires) to somebody who I thought had power wrt breastfeeding policy.

But I'm not meant to ask questions of her in case it "makes somebody feel bad"?!

I Give Up.

Honestly.

And if you just dont want to, then yes that is your choice, but that shouldn't stop other people talking about it, promoting it and educating others about it, just because of a choice you have made.

morechoc- so that's why people on here are frustrated with the minister... because of women being left on their own or having a crap hv.

unless maybe you just need a bit of distance from your own situation (whatever that is) and see that actually all we are arguing for is improved support for everyone, regardless of whether bfing is ultimately something they can do. seriously, i've been there...

I don't get it.

If you are PHYSICALLY unable to breastfeed then you have no choice, therefore why any guilt? I don't feel guilty about things I cannot help. Why would you feel you are beig slated if you CANNOT breastfeed?

all i'm sayin' is that it might appear different to someone else. I had a brill hv, but i know other people who were left on their own. and some mums don't want to bf that's up to them

the syle is militant - no-one has exactly said " breastfeed or i vil shoot"

but the whole thing reads rather ranty and i do understand the view " alright already we GET IT"

not sure i'm getting you, morechoc...

morechoc- i think it's easy to feel like people are being militant about breastfeeding if you yourself wanted to breastfeed but couldn't. it's then hard on you to see people going on about it being best for babies. no one on here is militant.

I don't really know what militant means in this context tbh

Not once has anyone been 'militant' about breastfeeding on this thread.

militant as in what? are there examples on this thread?

But there's no reason for mums to feel they're going to be slated. What Hunker (and others) are calling for, is more support for all those mothers who want to BF.

I don't think I've been militant on here.

I simply asked questions I felt were important.

I offer MUCH support elsewhere on MN re bfeeding.

I'm not quite sure what your point is, MC?

Hmm if that's the case OO, more fool her in a way. Surely politicians should do some basic preparation for these sorts of media appearances? Maybe they don't, maybe they're too busy...

well -militant attitudes about bfing make the problem worse, mums aren't going to ask for help if they feel they're going to get slated for not being able to bf?

Oh morechoc, we can only be called intimidating about bf because our culture is so damned scared of it.

In the old days, people used to find women who wore trousers intimidating too. But now they're used to them and doesn't it sound silly to recall how intimidated people were?

yes but she may not have seen the thread until today

agree posts were a bit cut and paste but she did say she was answering q's about "childcare, preschool and nurseries – and anything to do with young children" so I took that to mean waffle on tax credits etc

not breastfeeding or cheerios

Oh here we go, dont talk about breastfeeding will you.

morechoc, in what way?

GOD what appalling spelling

Theyre supposed to be tough arn't they? Polaticians?

i'm not saying we shoud all go out and buy nestle formula but maybe we should be a little less intimidating about breastfeeding?

LOL I suppose we are a rude bunch

Sorry Carrie (Am not sorry to BH though, I did think some of her answers sounded cut and pasted and this is a chat site, she should just chat. If politicians want to use different media to reach voters, then they ought to find out how the different media operate - her technique today was more suited to a TV broadcast than a fast moving chatforum. Can understand that she had to try and get through as many q's as possible though)

AT, I may very well do that. Thank you.

I have a Tory MP - Douglas Hurd's son, Nick - he's been very pro breastfeeding on the occasions I've emailed him in the past. I'm impressed with him thus far, definitely.

she had a week's notice on the nestle thing, as it happens.

she only had an hour

was probably reeling from the onslaught

Hunker - if an MP asked a question in the Commons regarding a Government boycott of Nestle because of its anti-bf practices then a Minister would have to answer. Why not write to your MP and ask them to bring it up in the Commons?

OO it matters because she was asked over and over agina and she ignored the question! She could have said 'That's private so I'd rather not answer'

OMG, is that seriously it?! That is shocking beyond belief.

COME ON DAVID!!!

No Cammelia, don;t think it;s his official title, but he could earn it if he comes on here...

Have to go and collect kids so if I don't respond, promise I'm not ignoring you

oh fgs what does it matter if she does or doesn't, surely that is a private matter

go and have a lie down carrie

I know hunker, but that would still be taking a position, which a Party drone isn't really allowed to do - and that's also assuming she knows what you were referring to. But I am too cynical about these people, I stopped trying years ago.

Yes maybe she doesn't want to say she boycotts them

Unless.........she does boycott them

DSW, she could've said she didn't then.

lololol welcome morechoc. you are preaching to the choir here. that's why more support is necessary, and that includes support for people who can't do it and need a hand in getting their heads round it. like me, for example.

Yes hunker, why not just say 'it's not really in my remit, but I can find out for you'

However... getting a minister, even a junior one, to admit to boycotting Nestle or even to comment on it - maybe when hell freezes over. You can see the headlines now...

hey all, new member here looks likea lively chat goin'
I'd just like to say that breastfeeding isn't easy for some mothers espcially those who really can't breastfeed for legit reasons and then are made to feel like a bad mother.

Beverley probably didn't know what her remit is

seriously carrie, we were more than civil - she was uncivil. if she wasn't the right person to answer the question then she might have said so. s
he could as a parent have told us what her experiences are and whether she has any interest in the subject, rather than cutting and pasting a pat and patronising answer.

The Head of Breastfeeding, is that his official post?

Oh, YES PLEASE Carrie!

Sorry, Beverley.

Couldn't you just have said that though?

And does she boycott Nestle?

Hi all

I've been contacted by Beverley's office to apologise again that she didn't get round to answering all the questions and to clarify that she's Minister for Children within the education department (rather than health) which is why she focused on the education questions most and didn't come back with full answers on breastfeeding. Apparently the person we should be emailing re the Govt policy on breastfeeding is Ivan Lewis (and yes I know his biog says he's in trade and industry, I thought that was odd too, but I'm assured he's now head of breastfeeding)The email on his site is
http://ivanlewis@burysouth.fsnet.co.uk
and there's some info on him herehttp://www.dh.gov.uk/en/AdvanceSearchResult/index.htm?searchTerms=ivan+l ewis

I know folks were seriously disappointed by some of the responses, but please, if we're ever to entice anyone back here to face you lot again can stay at least stay civil ?

Shall I see if Mr Lewis wants to come and chat with some friendly mums ?

Thanks
MNHQ

pipe smoke... dreamy...

John Smith was a very great loss.

Hunker - Ministers do not sign Early Day Motions. They have better routes for making their concerns known in Government.

GiantSquirrel - I wish we had talked to a Cabinet Minister. Hughes is just a Junior Minister.

Yes, Tony Benn would be brilliant. I once wrote to him when I was a student, asking him to speak at a seminar. He couldn't make it, but he wrote back a really nice personal letter....and it smelled of pipe smoke!

its like 'I have spoken therefore it's true'

sod what everyone else thinks



<btw that's 2 votes for Cameron now >

givvus tony benn. i could just worship at his feet. <swoon>