Am I unreasonable to think ex shouldn't drink during contact?

[jenrose29]

My ex husband and I seperated 2.5 years ago when our daughter was 2 years old. His drinking had been a big issue in the marriage as he would often get drunk and not return home, or get drunk and wake our daughter and I up/be abusive. We moved into a hostel which was less than a mile away from the marital home and he would regularly turn up drunk, he was sick in his bed and nearly died, knocked himself out etc. He would have to walk to collect our daughter because he was still over the limit from the night before. Eventually my daughter and I moved 30 miles away to a much nicer area. However, she would still come back from contact saying he had been drinking, had fallen down the stairs/asleep on the sofa and she couldn't wake him etc. Then in August last year, he took her to a party and got so drunk he passed out in the back of his girlfriends car whilst she drove them home. That was the final straw for me and I stopped contact as I didn't think he was safe to look after himself, let alone our daughter. He applied to court for a contact order and we attended mediation. He said he would cut down his drinking and for a few months he did (or at least it appeared that he had.)

However, for the past 3 months or so his girlfriend has been driving to return our daughter from contact. He has been there too and smells of alcohol and our daughter makes it clear that he couldn't drive because he's been drinking beer/wine. He returns her on a Sunday afternoon! She also says she struggles to sleep there because he is noisy/banging doors etc on the Saturday night - i.e. drunk. Today he returned her and his girlfriend was driving. It was the first time he'd seen our daughter in three weeks and he'd had too much to drink to be able to drive and smelt strongly of alcohol. Am I unreasonable in thinking that he shouldn't be drinking during contact? He only has her for two nights per month, he is free to drink any other night - I don't see why he can't just abstain for the times she is there? If anything happened, he would not be in a fit state to deal with it and our daughter is not his girlfriends responsibility (she doesn't live with him, she is just his drunken taxi service it seems.) Am I being unreasonable? Any advice?

yanbu! does he live with his girlfriend? does she get drunk when your DD is there also or is she sober so that your DD would be safe if anything happened?

I was about to come on and say YABU, it's his time and he can do what he wants, me and DH both have a drink if we want one whether DSS is here or not but never both hammered.
BUT I think you are right to be worried, this isn't a couple of beers and knowing his limit, this seems to be excessive and regular.
Can you discuss this with him, or will he kick off?

What does that abbreviation mean??

No he doesn't live with his girlfriend. She is only 21 and still lives with her parents. He is 37. She drinks too, but not to the point of being hammered like he does. He would kick off big time if I bought up his drinking again.

of course YANBU. You need to stop contact until you have some sort of assurance from him that he will not drink at all or at least to excess when she is with him.

If he won't give that assurance then stop contact and try mediation again.

The problem is that you can never be sure if he will not get drunk again even if he does assure you he won't but he needs to know that if he does you will not tolerate it.

Just stop contact. He needs to jump through some pretty big hoops and make an effort if he wants to spend time with his DD.

He can't get bladdered when it's their time together .

You are not being unreasonable, you are being protective of your child, follow that instinct. Contact a solicitor and if possible stop contact and get the contact order taken back to court as he is clearly not keeping to his side of the deal by reducing his drinking. They may be able to request tests to show his level of drinking. It sounds scary for your daughter and unsafe. If he is an alcoholic he won't be able to abstain during contact but that is his problem and he needs to prioritise your daughter.

in that case i think you need to protect your DD and stop contact. he can't be looking afetr her properly if her is drunk. i can't imagine a court would make her go if he refuses to stop drinking.

YANBU= you are not being unreasonable.

Ah got it! Thank you IAmBooyhoo :)

We didn't get a contact order in the end as he agreed to cut down/stop drinking during contact and for a couple of months he did as far as I'm aware, or at least hid it from me. Now, however, he is quite blatant about having been drinking and DD says he took her to the shop this morning straight after breakfast to buy a box of beer...! Even she knows that it is not right and that he acts differently. Last time he saw her his girlfriend was away and so he didn't drink as he had to drive our DD home. He came in and had a cup of tea, she showed him her pictures etc. This time, he'd been drinking all day, he came in and was arsey with me and forgot to return the car seat he'd borrowed so his girlfriend drove him all the way back to get it and then was driving him to the pub afterwards. He asked today if he could have her for an extra date in June as it is his nephews birthday party (he is 2.) I said yes but that I would have her back after, he said no as they would need to sleep over. The only reason to sleep over is because he'll have a drink!

All he'll do if we went back to mediation is say he won't drink, when we both know he will and so it wouldn't solve anything. Stopping contact is so disruptive for our daughter as she grasps that it is because of his drinking but then is very happy during the period of no contact, followed by being upset when she sees him again. I just don't know what to do for the best.

if he promises but doesn't mean it then you have no choice IMO but to stop the contact. it is a hard decision to make but it isn't healthy or safe for your DD to be around him like that

Well if you are going to send her again you need to teach her how to dial 999 and explain in what circumstances.

She seems v articulate for a four or five year old. You need to keep good records.

I guess you need to think about what are the possible outcomes for your dd in the case of him being v drunk while in charge of her and what kind of risks she is being exposed to. What could happen.what might happen.

Tho if he chooses to get so drunk only when someone else around ie the girl friend then maybe on some level heis making sure someone is there for dd and excuses himself that way? Does the girl friend stay over or is dd in his sole care when he has been drinking?

Maybe call nspcc helpline and see what level of child protection is thought about for a heavily drinking parent and what's the SS or courts view? Also if his drinking problem is recorded somewhere eg gp ?

But if there is no contact order you can just say no contact, let him then go to court to ask for it. But you will need careful records and details of your concerns.

She is very articulate and aware how different he is when he's been drinking. He drinks whether his girlfriend is there or not, she often goes out for the night as she is young and so he drinks at home to catch up with her if she goes back to his afterwards. I have contacted the NSPCC before I stopped contact before but there were other issues then, but I will speak to them again, thank you.

if you havent been keeping a contact diary then do so now, make sure you have good records dates times, etc, what dd said; how ex presented etc.
what does dd want? to not go?

i was going to say yabu, as parents do have the odd drink but not when they will be driving! you say the girlfriend drinks as well, but not as much but does she drive after drinking? even a small amount of alcohol is not good when driving.

i wouldnt be ahppy about this at all!

No she doesn't drink before driving, just on the Saturday night when DD is in their care. I don't drink, but even if I did I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable with my partner and I both being over the limit in case something happened. I do keep a contact diary. It's an odd situation - DD always hated contact, then when my ex met his girlfriend just over a year ago, my DD met the girlfriends brother who is 8 and they are good friends so my daughter doesn't mind going as my ex always makes sure the brother is there. But my daughter doesn't go to spend time with her father.

You could ask him to mediation again to outline your concerns about his drinking. Or how would he respond to you asking him by email to not drink when dd is with him?
But the issues raised might not meet criteria to stop contact. . If it only your word against his and he takes it to court says you impeding contact.

That dd was with when he bought beer well normal Saturday shop could involve beer...,
That there is another responsible adult around it seems might go in his favour.
That she wants to go to spend time with the brother..,

In a way you might have to wait for something concretely "bad" to happen... Tho in absence of court order you can just say no to any extra days etc.

I think he would say he couldn't afford to go to mediation again. Plus it was pretty pointless first time round to be honest - he just made lots of promises that he hasn't kept. If I emailed him or indeed mentioned it in any way he would be very angry. DD specifically said which (corner) shop he got the box of beer from and that it was the only thing he bought (besides wine!) but I take your point. His girlfriend doesn't live with him so I don't think she'd necessarily count. She doesn't necessarily want to go to spend time with the brother, he is just the only persuasion tactic her father has. She was flat out refusing to (though I made her) go before he was introduced, now she begrudgingly accepts that she has to go and sees the gf's brother as a consolation. It just frustrates me that my ex knows, my daughter knows and I know that the main reason contact stopped before was because he was drinking to excess in her presence. Therefore, you'd think the last thing he'd do now he has regular sustained contact is to drink yet it seems there is little I can do about it. He doesn't see the issue with it, and even if it went to court it'd only disrupt our daughter and then she'd go back to having to see him and be put at risk again.

It sounds to me that he is more than having a drink - sounds like he can't control it.

It's really hard as I can see that you want your daughter to have a relationship with her dad, but you just can't let her stay unless he gives it up. Saying this with the experience of living with what I now realise was an alcoholic partner. When our children were young, I used to plead with him not to drink when in sole charge. What I didnt " get" was that he had no choice- the drink was more important than anything. There were many awful incidents, the worst of which was when I arrived home to find him out for the count and a pan burning dry on the cooker. Our kids were way too young to get out of A fire on their own.

He lives separately now, he loves his kids, and of course I want them to have relationship with their dad. But there's no way they're staying overnight .

The thing is, I know that if we go to court over contact he can just deny the drinking and/or make false promises and contact will be granted and so therefore my daughter will just be upset (by having to go back, rather than having contact stopped) for nothing. Even if he were alcohol tested in court, that takes months to happen and he can shave his head etc to avoid it.

I think that if you went to a solicitor/ social services, and told them your concerns they would be taken seriously. After all you have evidence to back you up _ and ultimately it is a child protection issue.

What evidence do I have? All I have is my word that he is intoxicated and smells of alcohol when he returns DD and her word that he drinks a lot when she is there. We went through solicitors when we had this issue before, and all he does is say I'm lying.

JENROSE29 I am in a similar situation although DD's father and I split before she was born and legally he has no parental responsibility. I have kept a detailed contact diary which definitely helps me to remember why he is not allowed unsupervised access any more. I wish for DD's sake he was kind of father who could have unrestricted access, not just for her but, selfishly, it would be nice to get a break once in a while, but to do so I know I would be putting her at risk and I am not prepared to do that. I would rather have to explain to her when she is older that I couldn't bear to take the chance she might be hurt and face her anger than let her go and be counting down the minutes praying for her safe return. I think you know what you have to do, the only thing I would say is rather than stopping contact completely, offer him the opportunity to see her in her home environment/neutral location once a fortnight on a set day. If he can demonstrate to you that he's turning his life around during that time maybe you will reconsider. You can't make him change but you can keep DD safe from harm and that's your sole responsibility. I see DD's father as and when he feels like seeing her and I do my absolute best to keep it amicable for DD's sake, and I know how difficult that can be. If he does take you to court you have to show that you have done everything you can to be reasonable, but that doesn't include anything that is potentially harmful to your DD. I hope this helps, I really do feel for you. Be strong and good luck!

Sorry, I thought that the fact that he had turned up to the hostel drunk was seen by others? I think that the diary is a great idea, definitely worth doing. Are there any friends that you have who have seen him drunk?

yup you need independent witnesses and records of bad behaviour /putting dd at risk - buying alcohol and smelling of alcohol per se may not be enough.

sadly it is a case of having to wait for an alcohol-realted incident bad enough to put dd at risk. teach dd how to use phone so she could eg phone you if ex is passed out drunk. then - you turn up there take photos and get your evidence..

but see what nspcc advise - what is the threshold for drinking etc when in charge of dc?

after all if you could report just for being drunk in charge of DC then thousands of middle class bbq parties would result in SS getting involved - which isnt likely. you need more evidence than drinking per se.

or you take the view that you cut contact and go thru all the promises etc again.

Can you arrange to have a friend with you next time (and every time) he drops DD off so that there's someone else who can confirm the state he's in?

His drinking is out of control. He is an alcoholic. I was in a similar situation, I had split with my ex partly because of his drinking. However I thought he valued his children enough to not get drunk when caring for them (on weekends). I was wrong and it got worse without my knowledge. I was called to the house by the neighbour one weekend when ex had collapsed while caring for my DCs and the neighbours child. I thought he'd had a heart attack. Turned out that when he came round in hospital he was just drunk and had been at it probably all afternoon. When I asked the children the next day if they knew what 'drunk' meant they knew well enough. He had been drunk on holiday with them. Too pissed to get them to the apartment from the disco. A stranger had to help. There was a f*ing swimming pool and my 4 year old could not swim.
Since then my ex has had me in court for 3 years. Denying drinking, wanting unsupervised contact. Police records proved he had a major problem and psycho reports backed it all up. Latest is that he went to rehab for 3 weeks his gf had a baby and he expects me/ us to trust him now... WTF
In a way I am lucky that he got caught and it was witnessed (by neighbour, hospital etc) WITHOUT anyone being hurt. You need evidence and get a good solicitor, inform SS? (Sorry if you've heard it all already)
GOOD LUCK....