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Police caution as a teenager...will it show on a CRB?

(56 Posts)
Beensostupid Thu 07-Mar-13 19:32:52

Namechanged as very embarrassed.

Please don't judge me but as a teenager (14 or 15) I was caught shoplifting! I was given a police caution at the local station...I feel sick just writing this! Anyway 17 years on and I would like to apply for a job that I think will need an enhanced crb...will it show up? I really, really don't want to raise this with them as I feel so embarrassed by it! TIA

prh47bridge Sat 03-Aug-13 00:02:01

Reprimands and warnings are treated the same way as cautions for DBS checks. In essence they replace cautions for those aged 17 or under.

The centralised system is the PNC - Police National Computer - which has been in operation since 1974. It holds over 9 million personal records each of which should show all previous arrests and convictions including the outcome of each case. A record should have been created for your son when he was arrested. Any system depends on humans to input data so it is possible that nothing was entered or that the information is garbled but the likelihood is that the information is there and hence available for DBS checks.

The good news is that your son's reprimand or warning will no longer appear on DBS checks in two years time unless it is for one of the offences that is never filtered.

StuBlack Fri 02-Aug-13 21:03:44

Thanks for (at last) an authoritative answer in this. i do sometimes wonder how people find the time to go on these forums without finding the time to make sure what they post is accurate/helpful.

Couple of questions if I may :

1. Does a 'caution' include a 'reprimand' that I understand is a less severe warning ?

2. How joined-up are today's reporting systems, I.e. if my son got a warning (reprimand I think) last week in deepest Cormwall, how likely is this to make its way to a centralised system that holds the data for enhanced DBSs ?

Thanks

prh47bridge Tue 02-Jul-13 23:23:55

Thank you ItStartedInRome.

Just to bring this thread up to date, the information posted by Wacksy17 is broadly correct. The government decided to respond to the appeal court ruling I referred to previously by introducing some filtering.

There is a list of 751 offences that will never be removed from a DBS check. For other offences the rules are:

- If the offence resulted in a caution it will be removed 6 years after the date of the caution. This period is reduced to 2 years if you were under 18 at the time of the offence.

- If the offence resulted in a conviction it will be removed 11 years after the date of conviction provided it is your only offence and you did not receive a custodial sentence. This period is reduced to 5.5 years if you were under 18 at the time of the offence.

The government's official announcement including links to the rules and the current list of offences that will never be removed can be found here.

ItStartedInRome Tue 02-Jul-13 20:59:22

OP not sure where some of those seeking to help you get their 'knowledge' from. Prh47 clearly has actual knowledge on this subject.

'Spent' convictions/cautions/warnings/reprimands are dealt with under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974. In all likelihood therefore your caution is spent and does not need to be declared by you to potential employer. There are however exceptions. These include working with kids, vulnerable adults, some senior financial positions, law enforcement and legal jobs. It would be usual for your original application form (if there was one) to ask whether you had any convictions/cautions to declare and would state whether or not the ROA 1974 applied.

An enhanced check on your criminal record should show everything including this caution. Prh47 covered many reasons why sometimes they come back clear. I'd add that often individual police stations didn't record things properly, years ago there wasn't a centralised system, many juveniles who were told off/given a fright by police didn't actually receive a formal caution/reprimand/warning and understandably get confused with the terminology.

hifi Tue 02-Jul-13 19:06:17

when we were being approved as adopters,DH had 3 sheets returned with all his violations from the age of 15.this was 3 years ago,his offences were33 years ago.

hamilton75 Tue 02-Jul-13 18:25:21

DH had a caution at 18 for being drunk and disorderly (20 years ago). He applied for his PGCE and was worried it would show up so he got in contact with the local station beforehand. There was nothing at all on the police computer and the police assured him it wouldn't show as it was so long ago/spent.

It didn't, came back clean as a whistle so I'm not sure why some people are saying the OPs would still show. Surely different forces must have the same procedure?

Wacksy17 Tue 02-Jul-13 16:40:47

GOOD NEWS !
the law has just been changed so that reprimands given to infants will be filtered off criminal records checks two years later on matters such as shoplifting, but not on more serious crimes –
if given a caution as an adult these filtered off after 6 years

Also, if you have one conviction only say for shoplifting and were not them to prison for it, that is filtered off after 11 years

If you were just questioned about this it is possible, if unlikely, that this will come up as enhanced disclosure within the police discretion on a criminal records check but it is possible to object to this to try and get it removed

it is also possible to apply the cautions/reprimands to be removed before the 2/6 year period. If you can show exceptional circumstances

Wacksy17 Tue 02-Jul-13 16:40:32

GOOD NEWS !
the law has just been changed so that reprimands given to infants will be filtered off criminal records checks two years later on matters such as shoplifting, but not on more serious crimes –
if given a caution as an adult these filtered off after 6 years

Also, if you have one conviction only say for shoplifting and were not them to prison for it, that is filtered off after 11 years

If you were just questioned about this it is possible, if unlikely, that this will come up as enhanced disclosure within the police discretion on a criminal records check but it is possible to object to this to try and get it removed

it is also possible to apply the cautions/reprimands to be removed before the 2/6 year period. If you can show exceptional circumstances

AWomanOfsubstance Fri 15-Mar-13 10:51:37

Thanks for the information all who have replied.

The post is with a mortgage lender so not involving children or vulnerable adults so it would seem that only standard disclosure can be requested.

That puts my mind at rest as, though the police completely exonerated me, such allegations are very embarassing in a job like mine and might prompt mutterings from some of "no smoke without fire".

lljkk Fri 15-Mar-13 08:05:09

That's a good point, I'm interviewing for an information analyst position with NHS and I'll need enhanced CRB even though I'll have no face-to-face contact with patients, but might have access to confidential records for vulnerables.

scottishmummy Thu 14-Mar-13 19:03:39

Enhanced crb is usually when working with vulnerable adults,children
Wouldn't ordinarily expect finance to be subject to enhanced crb
But if it were finances in health/social care maybe would be enhanced crb?

prh47bridge Wed 13-Mar-13 13:16:09

I believe positions in financial services are only subject to standard disclosures. If the police concluded that the accusations were baseless there is a good chance your arrest would not show up even on an enhanced check.

HorribleMother Wed 13-Mar-13 11:19:47

Just ring the DBS, I think, to be sure.

I used to do CRB checks (now DBS?): you could only ask for enhanced CRB IF the post involved routinely working with vulnerable people. So doesn't sound like your Fin.Services job would fit that description.

AWomanOfsubstance Wed 13-Mar-13 00:31:59

Thanks for that prh.

Can i just ask another question? I can't tell from the DBS guidance for which jobs an employer is entitled to ask for an enhanced check. My situation is that I may be offered a position in the financial services industry in a responsible person post. Several years ago a previous employer made a malicious accusation against me of fraud to the police which resulted in my arrest. Investigations were made which resulted in no further action as it was clear that there were absolutely no grounds for the accusations. It would appear however that if an enhanced DBS check is carried out that the arrest record is likely to be disclosed. A standard DBS check would not disclose this information. Do you know which type of report can be requested for this kind of job?

prh47bridge Tue 12-Mar-13 22:29:06

An enhanced CRB includes any non-conviction information the police consider relevant. So that could include arrests resulting in no further action or investigations that didn't lead to an arrest. It may also include ongoing investigations involving the subject. Sometimes the additional information in an enhanced disclosure will not be released to the subject.

Note that the police do have discretion over the additional information included in an enhanced disclosure. However, neither the police nor the CRB has any discretion over whether or not to disclose convictions, cautions, etc. This may change following a recent ruling by the appeal court but the government is currently in the process of appealing and, until that is resolved, the current rules continue to apply.

AWomanOfsubstance Tue 12-Mar-13 17:24:46

I'm not quite clear on what other information would be in an enhanced CRB - would it include details of arrests which resulted in no further action - ie no charges brought?

HorribleMother Tue 12-Mar-13 10:25:48

CRBs can only pick up folk who have been caught, anyway, they only tell you about the past not the future. They are never going to be perfect. A crumb of comfort is that Folk who have convictions/cautions for sex offenses get entered into the system in more ways (get their names on more lists), though, and their crimes are taken more seriously, so less likely to slip thru the net. It's stuff like Drunk & Disorderly/Trespassing/Shoplifting, especially only cautions, that might get missed (most common juvenile crimes).

It has often been pointed out that if Ian Huntley simply declined to put down his previous names, he too would slip thru the current checks (probably).

A relative was asked to volunteer for a youth group; I advised him to disclose a juvenile caution in advance of the CRB form. He was mortified "But they told me it would disappear from my record!" I had to explain that the rules have changed. sad Luckily the youth group organiser was completely nonplussed.

prh47bridge Mon 11-Mar-13 23:11:46

botandhothered - It would be great if the disclosure system always gave correct information. It doesn't. That is one of the reasons employers are advised to have other safeguards in place. We know that around 2,000 disclosures a year contain inaccurate information resulting in the subject successfully disputing the disclosure. In those cases the disclosure wrongly alleges that the subject has received convictions, cautions, etc. There is no way of knowing but I suspect a similar number of disclosures fail to contain information that should be present. In your case, once your caution failed to show up on your first disclosure it was a fair bet it would not show up on any subsequent disclosures.

prh47bridge Mon 11-Mar-13 22:56:40

Scottishmummy - ALL CRB checks show spent cautions. That is why a CRB check is only available where the employer is entitled to ask exempted questions (which, translated into English, means they are allowed to ask about spent convictions, cautions, etc.).

If you are in Scotland (as your username suggests) the system is slightly different. Disclosure Scotland will provide a basic disclosure which only covers unspent convictions. However, both standard and enhanced disclosures include spent convictions, cautions, etc. This matches the standard and enhanced disclosures under the English system.

Information on what is and isn't included in a CRB disclosure can be found here.

botandhothered Mon 11-Mar-13 20:27:51

It's worrying that 3 people on here, including myself have had multiple CRB checks that don't show our juvenile cautions.

I have always thought that a teenage shoplifting caution was considered irrelevant by CRB to the positions I applied for, since it has NEVER, in 20 yrs, shown up. Especially as I lived under the same police force, in the same town, and have not changed my name.

If , as you suggest,it is due to a mistake, rather than a deliberate omission , that is very scary.

How many people wth convictions/ cautions of violence/child abuse are slipping through the net?

HorribleMother Mon 11-Mar-13 19:14:21

Also cumfy it's up to individual employers how they use the info. Most larger employers are sensible and should follow the guidelines they are supposed to, but a lot of others will take a knee jerk reaction to the sight of any caution/conviction, no matter how arguably irrelevant.

scottishmummy Mon 11-Mar-13 19:10:34

Cautions Considered spent for non enhanced crb.enhanced shows all police activity Inc caution
The accuracy of pnc data is factor,but I wouldn't hope for incorrect /missing data as strategy
difficult as it is I would disclose caution.rather than not and be caught out

prh47bridge Mon 11-Mar-13 18:20:40

A spent conviction/caution should turn up on a CRB check. That is the whole point of the check. However, any computer system is only as good as the information fed into it. If the PNC does not have your conviction/caution recorded or is unable to connect it to you (e.g. due to name and address changes or incorrect details being recorded on the system) it will not appear on your disclosure.

botandhothered Mon 11-Mar-13 15:00:28

Ooops! Didn't read down to the bottom of the page it says that you MUST disclose it on an enhanced CRB.
That it WILL show on a CRB.
Still doesn't explain why it has never shown up on mine in 20 yrs, though!

botandhothered Mon 11-Mar-13 14:50:27

Actually just read the askthepolice website.

It says Juvenile cautions are considered spent immediately.
It states that if asked on an application if you have any convictions or cautions you CAN state NO!

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