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Police caution as a teenager...will it show on a CRB?

(56 Posts)
Beensostupid Thu 07-Mar-13 19:32:52

Namechanged as very embarrassed.

Please don't judge me but as a teenager (14 or 15) I was caught shoplifting! I was given a police caution at the local station...I feel sick just writing this! Anyway 17 years on and I would like to apply for a job that I think will need an enhanced crb...will it show up? I really, really don't want to raise this with them as I feel so embarrassed by it! TIA

cumfy Sun 10-Mar-13 23:39:34

Is the advice that the CRB has discretion (contingent on the nature of the requesting organisation) also inaccurate prh ?

It just seems paradoxical that someone who lied would potentially gain an advantage.

Surely part of the whole process is that the applicants account tallies with the CRB record, and there is therefore little or no point in the CRB having discretion.

prh47bridge Sun 10-Mar-13 23:49:20

Yes, that is also inaccurate. The CRB disclose everything. It is up to the employer/voluntary organisation to decide whether any information disclosed is relevant, not for the CRB to decide on their behalf.

As you say, there is little or no point in the CRB having discretion. Indeed, if they did it would open up all kinds of scenarios where they may face liability through incorrectly deciding that information was not relevant.

LaurieBlueBell Mon 11-Mar-13 13:10:20

My caution for shoplifting (bag of peanuts blush) has never shown on12 years worth of foster carers enhanced CRB checks. I've also had enhanced checks for 3 other roles which also didn't show my caution.

prh47bridge Mon 11-Mar-13 13:32:53

All that proves is that either your caution is not recorded on the PNC or it hasn't been identified as relating to you for some reason. As I posted previously, a CRB check (standard or enhanced) will always show every conviction, caution, reprimand and final warning recorded against your record on the PNC.

botandhothered Mon 11-Mar-13 14:31:13

Mmm! I also have/had a juvenile caution for shoplifting.
I Was told at the time that after the age of 18 it would be wiped from my record. This was 34 yrs ago.
From the age of 18 I have had many enhanced CRB checks, it has NEVER come up.

cumfy Mon 11-Mar-13 14:45:43

There are interesting gaps between "theory" and practice here.

I think it is entirely unclear whether a spent conviction/caution will turn up or not.

botandhothered Mon 11-Mar-13 14:50:27

Actually just read the askthepolice website.

It says Juvenile cautions are considered spent immediately.
It states that if asked on an application if you have any convictions or cautions you CAN state NO!

botandhothered Mon 11-Mar-13 15:00:28

Ooops! Didn't read down to the bottom of the page it says that you MUST disclose it on an enhanced CRB.
That it WILL show on a CRB.
Still doesn't explain why it has never shown up on mine in 20 yrs, though!

prh47bridge Mon 11-Mar-13 18:20:40

A spent conviction/caution should turn up on a CRB check. That is the whole point of the check. However, any computer system is only as good as the information fed into it. If the PNC does not have your conviction/caution recorded or is unable to connect it to you (e.g. due to name and address changes or incorrect details being recorded on the system) it will not appear on your disclosure.

scottishmummy France Mon 11-Mar-13 19:10:34

Cautions Considered spent for non enhanced crb.enhanced shows all police activity Inc caution
The accuracy of pnc data is factor,but I wouldn't hope for incorrect /missing data as strategy
difficult as it is I would disclose caution.rather than not and be caught out

HorribleMother Mon 11-Mar-13 19:14:21

Also cumfy it's up to individual employers how they use the info. Most larger employers are sensible and should follow the guidelines they are supposed to, but a lot of others will take a knee jerk reaction to the sight of any caution/conviction, no matter how arguably irrelevant.

botandhothered Mon 11-Mar-13 20:27:51

It's worrying that 3 people on here, including myself have had multiple CRB checks that don't show our juvenile cautions.

I have always thought that a teenage shoplifting caution was considered irrelevant by CRB to the positions I applied for, since it has NEVER, in 20 yrs, shown up. Especially as I lived under the same police force, in the same town, and have not changed my name.

If , as you suggest,it is due to a mistake, rather than a deliberate omission , that is very scary.

How many people wth convictions/ cautions of violence/child abuse are slipping through the net?

prh47bridge Mon 11-Mar-13 22:56:40

Scottishmummy - ALL CRB checks show spent cautions. That is why a CRB check is only available where the employer is entitled to ask exempted questions (which, translated into English, means they are allowed to ask about spent convictions, cautions, etc.).

If you are in Scotland (as your username suggests) the system is slightly different. Disclosure Scotland will provide a basic disclosure which only covers unspent convictions. However, both standard and enhanced disclosures include spent convictions, cautions, etc. This matches the standard and enhanced disclosures under the English system.

Information on what is and isn't included in a CRB disclosure can be found here.

prh47bridge Mon 11-Mar-13 23:11:46

botandhothered - It would be great if the disclosure system always gave correct information. It doesn't. That is one of the reasons employers are advised to have other safeguards in place. We know that around 2,000 disclosures a year contain inaccurate information resulting in the subject successfully disputing the disclosure. In those cases the disclosure wrongly alleges that the subject has received convictions, cautions, etc. There is no way of knowing but I suspect a similar number of disclosures fail to contain information that should be present. In your case, once your caution failed to show up on your first disclosure it was a fair bet it would not show up on any subsequent disclosures.

HorribleMother Tue 12-Mar-13 10:25:48

CRBs can only pick up folk who have been caught, anyway, they only tell you about the past not the future. They are never going to be perfect. A crumb of comfort is that Folk who have convictions/cautions for sex offenses get entered into the system in more ways (get their names on more lists), though, and their crimes are taken more seriously, so less likely to slip thru the net. It's stuff like Drunk & Disorderly/Trespassing/Shoplifting, especially only cautions, that might get missed (most common juvenile crimes).

It has often been pointed out that if Ian Huntley simply declined to put down his previous names, he too would slip thru the current checks (probably).

A relative was asked to volunteer for a youth group; I advised him to disclose a juvenile caution in advance of the CRB form. He was mortified "But they told me it would disappear from my record!" I had to explain that the rules have changed. sad Luckily the youth group organiser was completely nonplussed.

AWomanOfsubstance Tue 12-Mar-13 17:24:46

I'm not quite clear on what other information would be in an enhanced CRB - would it include details of arrests which resulted in no further action - ie no charges brought?

prh47bridge Tue 12-Mar-13 22:29:06

An enhanced CRB includes any non-conviction information the police consider relevant. So that could include arrests resulting in no further action or investigations that didn't lead to an arrest. It may also include ongoing investigations involving the subject. Sometimes the additional information in an enhanced disclosure will not be released to the subject.

Note that the police do have discretion over the additional information included in an enhanced disclosure. However, neither the police nor the CRB has any discretion over whether or not to disclose convictions, cautions, etc. This may change following a recent ruling by the appeal court but the government is currently in the process of appealing and, until that is resolved, the current rules continue to apply.

AWomanOfsubstance Wed 13-Mar-13 00:31:59

Thanks for that prh.

Can i just ask another question? I can't tell from the DBS guidance for which jobs an employer is entitled to ask for an enhanced check. My situation is that I may be offered a position in the financial services industry in a responsible person post. Several years ago a previous employer made a malicious accusation against me of fraud to the police which resulted in my arrest. Investigations were made which resulted in no further action as it was clear that there were absolutely no grounds for the accusations. It would appear however that if an enhanced DBS check is carried out that the arrest record is likely to be disclosed. A standard DBS check would not disclose this information. Do you know which type of report can be requested for this kind of job?

HorribleMother Wed 13-Mar-13 11:19:47

Just ring the DBS, I think, to be sure.

I used to do CRB checks (now DBS?): you could only ask for enhanced CRB IF the post involved routinely working with vulnerable people. So doesn't sound like your Fin.Services job would fit that description.

prh47bridge Wed 13-Mar-13 13:16:09

I believe positions in financial services are only subject to standard disclosures. If the police concluded that the accusations were baseless there is a good chance your arrest would not show up even on an enhanced check.

scottishmummy France Thu 14-Mar-13 19:03:39

Enhanced crb is usually when working with vulnerable adults,children
Wouldn't ordinarily expect finance to be subject to enhanced crb
But if it were finances in health/social care maybe would be enhanced crb?

lljkk Netherlands Fri 15-Mar-13 08:05:09

That's a good point, I'm interviewing for an information analyst position with NHS and I'll need enhanced CRB even though I'll have no face-to-face contact with patients, but might have access to confidential records for vulnerables.

AWomanOfsubstance Fri 15-Mar-13 10:51:37

Thanks for the information all who have replied.

The post is with a mortgage lender so not involving children or vulnerable adults so it would seem that only standard disclosure can be requested.

That puts my mind at rest as, though the police completely exonerated me, such allegations are very embarassing in a job like mine and might prompt mutterings from some of "no smoke without fire".

Wacksy17 Tue 02-Jul-13 16:40:32

GOOD NEWS !
the law has just been changed so that reprimands given to infants will be filtered off criminal records checks two years later on matters such as shoplifting, but not on more serious crimes –
if given a caution as an adult these filtered off after 6 years

Also, if you have one conviction only say for shoplifting and were not them to prison for it, that is filtered off after 11 years

If you were just questioned about this it is possible, if unlikely, that this will come up as enhanced disclosure within the police discretion on a criminal records check but it is possible to object to this to try and get it removed

it is also possible to apply the cautions/reprimands to be removed before the 2/6 year period. If you can show exceptional circumstances

Wacksy17 Tue 02-Jul-13 16:40:47

GOOD NEWS !
the law has just been changed so that reprimands given to infants will be filtered off criminal records checks two years later on matters such as shoplifting, but not on more serious crimes –
if given a caution as an adult these filtered off after 6 years

Also, if you have one conviction only say for shoplifting and were not them to prison for it, that is filtered off after 11 years

If you were just questioned about this it is possible, if unlikely, that this will come up as enhanced disclosure within the police discretion on a criminal records check but it is possible to object to this to try and get it removed

it is also possible to apply the cautions/reprimands to be removed before the 2/6 year period. If you can show exceptional circumstances

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