Indian rape victim has died

(67 Posts)
xkittyx Fri 28-Dec-12 22:30:20

Sadly just seen on Al Jazeera that the poor woman who was raped and assaulted earlier in December has died.

funnyperson Wed 09-Jan-13 21:25:10

I dont think this will be an open and shut legal case. After all there are only two witnesses and they are the victims, one of whom is dead and the other didn't actually see all of what happened. Unless the 6 perpetrators have confessed.

Yes the guru has been outrageous. Sad, as there has been a silence from religious leaders on this front, perhaps because most of them are at a major religious festival atm. But Indians tend to take their cue from spiritual leaders- India is often called the 'veneration nation', with reason, so the silence is not a good thing for modern Indian women.
There was a lovely dressing down of the guru from a political leader Member of Parliament though
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/video/ravi-shankar-prasad-asaram-bapu-comment-india-delhi-gangrape-victim/1/241153.html

A guru has been quoted (in the Sun blush - sitting in the barber's waiting for my DS's hair to be cut...) as saying that this 'mistake' (sic) was as much the victim's fault as her attackers as she should have 'prayed' with them.
FFS.
Blame the victim. Not for the length of her skirt. Or the company she kept. Or her previous 'moral' record.
But her spirituality. I am speechless.

I do hope her family had actually given their consent to have her name published. It'd be awful if there suffering was increased by press intrusion when it had not been wanted.

I gather 2 of the accused are pleading Not Guilty to all charges?

funnyperson Tue 08-Jan-13 15:51:59

I'm very encouraged by the demonstration outside the Indian High Commission in London yesterday.
The legalities are v. interesting. India's police and prosecution and judiciary are on trial as much as the perpetrators. It will be interesting to see whether, even with a will to do so, the courts will be able to bring the criminals to book at all, following a fair trial, let alone impose a severe penalty. The perpetrators simply have to deny everything and/or blame it on the juvenile and they might have a reasonable chance of getting off.
As to the case of the juvenile perpetrator, this throws up an important anomaly in the Indian legal system which doesn't exist in the English system.

Walnutcakelover Mon 07-Jan-13 16:11:34

This case has made me extremely sad, feel really devastated sad

funnyperson Mon 07-Jan-13 14:41:11

I agree with posters above. This case is making me feel very uncomfortable.

funnyperson Mon 07-Jan-13 14:39:39

It is not at all clear if the father gave permission to reveal the girl's name. Apparently he has since denied giving permission and the legal process to get court permission to reveal her name was not followed. Typical Daily Mail trying to get a 'scoop' at any cost. Other newspapers are not publishing the name

The men accused are in court today.

Everytime I think about what she and her friend must have gone through, my stomach turns.
Apart from the obvious feminist issue with any rape, what I cannot get my head around is any human being inflicting this kind of sustained suffering on any other human being. I couldn't hurt an animal deliberately. I just fail to comprehend this altogether.

And yes, the poor family. And all the families affected by rape and murder sad.

reallylittlelass Sun 06-Jan-13 13:29:58

www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/india-gang-rape-victims-father-1521289
Since I have heard of this story, I keep crying. What a shit world we live in sometimes. I hear murders and horrid stories all the time, so I don't know why this one has hit me so hard, everytime I hear or see an article on this, I start crying and feel really panicky, and seeing the dads face has made me so sad.

that nothing - skirt length, being out late at night or anything else - gives anyone the right to attack another person. But the difficulty (as I see it) is that some people act in a way to which they have no right.

Exactly that. No matter what you wear or where you are a rapist is a rapist. People seem to side with the rapist tbh. That's my personal experience anyway.

I hope these men suffer.

rhondajean Fri 04-Jan-13 23:37:00

Sorry typing on my phone is awful!

rhondajean Fri 04-Jan-13 23:36:19

Ill apologis first as I know little of Indian law Erc but I read a disturbing comment earlier on an Indian news site. The latest that has come out us that the youngest attacker was most vicious. It's been widely reported today he disembowelled the girl with his hands. They are using a bone test to identify his age and whether he is tried as an adult it a juvenile.

This comment suggested they may try to vary him as the killer and a juvenile meaning he gets four years detention and the other men be tried on reduced charges. I realise there dies seem to be an issue with corruption in the police and courts but surely that couldn't happen?

ComeIntoTheGardenMaud Fri 04-Jan-13 23:24:40

I agree, PacificDogwood, that nothing - skirt length, being out late at night or anything else - gives anyone the right to attack another person. But the difficulty (as I see it) is that some people act in a way to which they have no right.

2rebecca Fri 04-Jan-13 23:04:45

Anyone else noticed she has had a career change over the past week? When I first heard about this case she was described as a physio student, the first one in her family to go to college and now she is being described as a medical student. Seems very odd, what does it matter how middle class her future career was?

I too am torn between feeling that nobody should put themselves in harm's way by avoiding 'risky' behaviour/dress/areas and at the same time feeling v strongly that the length of your skirt or where you are when does NOT give anybody the right to attack.

I am currently trying to teach my 4 year old DS3 that he can only kiss people who want to be kissed - he is currently using kisses to really, really annoy his older brother grin. The phrase 'You may only kiss somebody who wants to be kissed' is heard several times a day in this house at present. I can only hope that this will count as a first lession to not force himself on anybody ever...

Meglet Fri 04-Jan-13 22:40:11

I've found a couple of Tweeters who are based in India and been following them and their links. It's so horrific I suppose I'm just waiting with baited breath and hoping the attackers are locked up for life.

2rebecca Fri 04-Jan-13 12:58:10

Very sad case, I think the reason few women are commenting on it is that there is no real argument to be had here. it was a horrible crime and the murderers deserve a very unpleasant punishment. I read somewhere that after she got thrown off the bus it took 40 minutes before anyone called police or ambulance despite it being a crowded area. That is awful as well.

ComeIntoTheGardenMaud Fri 04-Jan-13 10:02:35

I have not suggested that victims should be blamed and hope my remarks have not been interpreted that way. Culpability rests entirely with the offender. All I am suggesting is that (conversely) women who make choices about (for example) how to dress should not be criticised either - often there seems to be an implication that they are propping up the status quo and that seems to me to be criticism under another guise.. Xkittyx makes some good points about how limited the choices about self protection can be, in any case.

Theala Fri 04-Jan-13 00:40:06

_xkittyx Fri 04-Jan-13 00:15:39
ComeIntoTheGarden, I do personally modify my behaviour - and when back visiting my home country, I modify it heavily - I'd be far too afraid not to.
However, I will not point a finger of blame at anyone for being the victim of a crime. If a woman is raped or attacked, the blame lies wholly and entirely with her attacker. If we start asking her to accept a portion of the blame, we're on a terribly slippery slope.
Also, the other reality is that some woman have little choice in terms of their safety. When I'm back home I'm with my husband, we have a private vehicle, stay in secure accommodation and there is private security. Many woman live in deprived areas with massive crime rates, inadequate policing, unregulated public transport. They might work a long way away from where they live, and work odd hours. These women run a daily risk of being attacked, not for being out partying, not for a choice, but simply going to and from work. They can't stay indoors - they and their children would starve. _

This. A friend of mine's 14-year-old daughter recently told me that she is quite happy to move (with her parents) to another city in our country, as she will finally be able to wear a skirt. She doesn't feel comfortable wearing a skirt at the moment, as it will attract too much attention. We live in Europe.

I feel sick to my stomach every time I think about that poor woman in India. I want to do something but I don't know what I can do. I feel so angry, impotent, and diminished. What can we in Europe do? Tell us, please.

xkittyx Fri 04-Jan-13 00:15:39

ComeIntoTheGarden, I do personally modify my behaviour - and when back visiting my home country, I modify it heavily - I'd be far too afraid not to.
However, I will not point a finger of blame at anyone for being the victim of a crime. If a woman is raped or attacked, the blame lies wholly and entirely with her attacker. If we start asking her to accept a portion of the blame, we're on a terribly slippery slope.
Also, the other reality is that some woman have little choice in terms of their safety. When I'm back home I'm with my husband, we have a private vehicle, stay in secure accommodation and there is private security. Many woman live in deprived areas with massive crime rates, inadequate policing, unregulated public transport. They might work a long way away from where they live, and work odd hours. These women run a daily risk of being attacked, not for being out partying, not for a choice, but simply going to and from work. They can't stay indoors - they and their children would starve.
It's heart-breaking - women in most of the world have such limited choice.

ComeIntoTheGardenMaud Fri 04-Jan-13 00:03:36

I hear what you're saying, xkitty, but (with some reluctance) I agree with funnyperson about taking a precautionary approach. The unpalatable truth, I think, is that if you know that you live in a society, culture, environment where sexism and casual violence against women are rife, then you do need to modify your behaviour accordingly. And then, of course, you try to bring about change so that the sexism and violence ends. It's an imperfect analogy, obviously, but there's a parallel with swimming in a shark-infested pool - the main priority is to get the shark out of the pool but, until then, don't dive in.

xkittyx Thu 03-Jan-13 23:32:29

funnyperson I see what you mean about being sensible whilst at the same time disagreeing with you, in that the onus is put back on the victim/potential victim rather than the perpeptrator not to do something horrible in the first place.
But while I agree with your DD, I do completely understand why you would want your children safe at all costs rather than see them at risk proving a point about what should be right.
It makes me so angry to think that women have to alter their behaviour, curtail their own freedoms for fear of something terrible happening to them. Even though it's something I myself do.
In terms of this case and the death penalty - I too normally oppose the death penalty but I can't feel any opposition to these men being put to death. I view them as being irredeemable.
Time will tell if this case has any impact or represents the start of any sort of change of attitude. I really hope so.
I'm originally from a country with a staggeringly high rate of rape and rape/murder of women and children and every so often there is case of such staggering horror and barbarity one thinks, surely now, surely something must begin to give, but sadly it never does and the attacks seem to go on and on and on.

funnyperson Thu 03-Jan-13 22:25:43

pacificdogwood what you say about things happening again and again simply has to be resisted. Firstly as with all things there are safer places to be and not so safe places to be and so we can all aspire to make the place we live in one of the safer places. By simply not accepting that criminals should go unchallenged or unpunished. By instilling mutual respect in our sons and daughters, nephews and nieces. By helping our daughters and sons to realise they have the right to say 'no' as well as the right to say 'yes'.
And yes, and I know that I am middle aged, and perhaps not everyone will agree with me, but by being sensible about when and how we travel late at night and what we wear and who we travel with and letting the DC know what we think is sensible and looking out for our young and teaching them about stranger danger and waking up and slogging out in the dark to pick them up from z's house party and taking self defence classes and all of that. And I dont care that DD says all of that is a load of old cobblers because I think if we didn't do all of that things would be worse than they are and we parents do all of that so that our young can live and be confident enough to tell us what a load of old squares we are. But old squares cant be with their daughters and sons the whole time so there comes a point when it is down to the police and the judiciary and the government to help make a city or a country safe from criminals.

I can see that, of course.
There are just no words to express my utter failure to comprehend how these things happen over and over again, and always have done angrysad.

Wishfulmakeupping Thu 03-Jan-13 22:02:53

The poor poor girl- this literally hurts my heart. I hope that something good can come out of this sickening situation and attitudes are changed, how can this happen in this day and age fucked up

ComeIntoTheGardenMaud Thu 03-Jan-13 22:02:00

I tend to think you're right, funnyperson. I don't, at heart, support the death penalty, but I think the logic of this case is that, if convicted, these men must surely deserve the most serious penalty that local law can provide.

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