Hamas and Israel on the brink of war

(104 Posts)
AnyaKnowIt Wed 14-Nov-12 21:39:31
CoteDAzur Thu 15-Nov-12 22:05:19

tiggers - Thanks for that interesting breakdown of EU aid.

CoteDAzur Thu 15-Nov-12 22:06:36

Poppy - If you think I am misinformed, feel free to inform me.

I would be interested to hear your "information".

nameswinger1 Thu 15-Nov-12 22:17:15

They say your face morphs into the person you are as you get older and the Middle East envoy Tony Blair looks positively scary and evil on ITN news this evening.

Fingers cross this doesn't escalate - it really is a nightmare with no end insight.

tiggersreturn Fri 16-Nov-12 07:53:21

Cote d'azur you have said

"US should have some leverage with Israel because without its political & military support (worth $ 3bn per year), Israel wouldn't last long nor would it also be able to give the proverbial finger to the international community re steadily increasing settlements into Palestinian territory. "

While it is true that Israel does receive that amount in military support, they have not received any economic support from the US since 2007. So if they can survive economically are you suggesting that it would be better they are wiped off the map by all Arab nations with their weapons as they have attempted to do in 1948, 1967, 1973, 1991 and so on? Or does "Israel wouldn't last long" have some other meaning?

In terms of steadlily increasing settlements into Palestinian territory, there have been settlement freezes and unfreezes over recent years but don't forget that in 2005 Israel uprooted entire communities of very hardline settlers in Gaza and removed them, handing back control of the entire area to the Palestinians. As a result of which the Palestinians started raining rockets on Southern Israel.

Not exactly a great response?

CoteDAzur Fri 16-Nov-12 08:24:38

You are answering stuff I haven't said - it is a logical fallacy called Straw Man.

"they have not received any economic support from the US since 2007. So if they can survive economically"

I never said Israel doesn't have a sustainable economy.

I said Israel gets $ 3 billion military aid from the US per year (which you agree is true) without which it wouldn't be able to keep up its current policies and survive.

"are you suggesting that it would be better they are wiped off the map"

Never said that, either.

What I have said was very clear. And it is fact. I'm not sure why you are trying to dispute it. I

EdithWeston Fri 16-Nov-12 08:36:26

I think what makes this particularly worrying is that the role Egypt will play is currently unknown. Mubarak was always able to stifle the popular pro-Palestinian sentiment in Egypt. The new president is unknown on both his inclination and ability to do this. And as he is of a Muslim Brotherhood background (similar roots to Hamas), then non-intervention cannot continue to be securely relied upon.

MrsjREwing Fri 16-Nov-12 08:42:45

Very worrying times, this is not good at all.

CoteDAzur Fri 16-Nov-12 08:42:46

The region is becoming more and more favourable to fundamentalists. "Arab spring" was all well and good, and we all cheered it because of course people should run their own countries, but the price of democracy is that we no longer have friendly dictators to steer their countries' policies away from fundamentalist religious thinking.

LightHousekeeping Fri 16-Nov-12 08:45:07

It's too scary to contemplate how this could end.

AnyaKnowIt Fri 16-Nov-12 21:56:28

Israel have doubled troops to 75,000

Sunnywithachanceofshowers Fri 16-Nov-12 22:17:28

sad

donnie Sat 17-Nov-12 09:18:58

tigger - what is a 'settlement freeze/unfreeze'? is it a euphemism? is an 'unfreeze' a different word for expansionism? or colonialism? or maybe just plain old land-grab? and those pockets of hardliners who were uprooted and moved - why were they there in the first place? oh yes, 'natural expansion' - that's what Bibi calls it isn't it? the assumed right of Israel to take whatever land they want from Arabs. What this points to is an entrenched and fundamental racism which lies at the heart of the Israeli land policy. I defy anyone here to contradict this with proof.

Also your link regarding aid to the Palestinians: do you think the same measures would be in place if it were not for the Israeli blockade of Gaza which has been in place for a number of years? starving and depriving them relentlessly?

And finally your comment that the Palestinians have 'control of the entire area' - this is rubbish; Israel has always maintained complete control of Gazan borders and ALL its land space.

Just waiting now for the apologists to come on and tell us that 'Israel is a lamb surrounded by wolves'..... and how generous and kind they are for dropping leaflets a few seconds informing them that they intend bomb them to hell

Did anyone hear Jonathan Sachs yesterday on R4! now that really was telling....

donnie Sat 17-Nov-12 10:19:25

'air space' - not land space.

MrsjREwing Sat 17-Nov-12 10:22:35

Getting worse, not good.

littleducks Sat 17-Nov-12 10:28:28

Neither side is blameless and it's gone to far to try and go back to the roots sadly.

However Israel broke the ceasefire, they made a conscious choice to assassinate someone as it was in there best interest over keeping the ceasefire. How and why they aren't more widely condemned for that shocks me.

noddyholder Sat 17-Nov-12 10:30:42

Yes I think Israel breaking the ceasefire was unforgiveable.

ScorpionQueen Sat 17-Nov-12 10:55:50

It's just awful. You'd think Israel would be above genocide considering their history but obviously not. Seeing pictures of the wounded and terrified makes me so sad and angry. Why are we not openly condeming this? Why is the media so hesitant to report on the atrocities? Yes again, the world just sits back and lets it happen. When will the human race ever learn from past mistakes?

I know it is not one-sided, but too many people are going to die and it is not right.
sad

MrsjREwing Sat 17-Nov-12 11:19:06

Too many innocents on both sides suffering. Who is the lunatic who started this? I can see this spreading to many countries.

donnie Sat 17-Nov-12 11:25:08

Blair refused to condemn the breaking of the ceasefire on R4 the other day. Just kept rabbiting on about 'de-escalation'. Not entirely sure how that is to be achieved , given that there will be no condemnation of the breaking of the (fragile) ceasefire.

Why is nobody addressing the expansion of the landtheft settlements? It is so obvious that this is a major, driving force behind hostilities. Yet nobody openly condemns it. Absolutely unbelievable. You can carry on building on stolen land and expanding into other people's territory, even in direct contravention of international law and still believe you have the moral high ground. I can barely believe the words as I type them.

CoteDAzur Sat 17-Nov-12 19:38:30

"Why are we not openly condeming this?"

UN tried to condemn Israel re its treatment of Palestinians but these motions were blocked by the US every single time.

CoteDAzur Sat 17-Nov-12 19:45:58

"Who is the lunatic who started this?"

Imho, that would be the British rulers of Palestine who thought it would be a good idea to gave this already populated area as a gift to Jews of the world.

MrsjREwing Sat 17-Nov-12 20:05:39

You see this goes back to Hitler and people wanting to make up for it, terrible, terrible things happened that never should have. Thing is they were not given Wales, The South West of England or Northern Ireland, land the UK owned, they gave away someone else's land.

I understand that land was not enough and more, more, more is being grabbed, what is the thinking? Leave well alone, be gratefull for the freeland and live in peace, stop being greedy and causing trouble for so many others in Israel, Gaza and all over the world. I bet Hague will join US and Israel and some poor bastards in London will be bombed, ffs.

lisalisa Sat 17-Nov-12 21:25:18

Yes thank you all thankfully ok - should have said that we are in UK at the moment not in Ashdod. But dh's family in Ashdod not so great - schools closed and sirens going constantly.
Dh's neice just gave birth 2 weeks ago and running to shelter little newborn got covered in shrapnel. sad

lisalisa Sat 17-Nov-12 21:29:27

"However Israel broke the ceasefire, they made a conscious choice to assassinate someone as it was in there best interest over keeping the ceasefire. How and why they aren't more widely condemned for that shocks me. "

Surely this was a joke? Israel broke the ceasefire? What ceasefire? There hasn't been a ceasefire ! Does this poster know that Sderot , Ashkelon and Ashdod have been under fire for many many months? Mainly Sderot where rockets have been falling every day - yes - every day - day in day out - for months. Hamas have been warned to stop and told that Israel will take action.

Schools in Sderot are pepperred wtih rocket holes and many kids are pyschologically traumatised. Shops have set opening times ( when rockets traditionally have not falled) , builders and tradesmen set up who specialise in repairing rocket damage and parks and open spaces deserted. A City under siege.

MrsjREwing Sat 17-Nov-12 21:33:35

Lisalisa, that is no way to live, so sad, I am not looking forward to living in terror like that again once the UK wades in.

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