Mumsnet Talk

One could even rephrase the OP to ask "why do women in relationships read Fifty Shades of Gray?

The answer is: because they get off on it. The better question is why does visual pornography arouse such disgust whereas written pornography does not?

I kind of see it like this.....

I like reading a book (not porn - just a bog standard book though I did read 50 shades )

DH likes to watch a bit of porn

When I was younger (Ok, so at 30 im not exactly ancient now), it used to bother me but as I've got older I just can't be bothered making a big deal out of it. The internet has defo made it more accessible to both men and women which is fine if that's what you're into. It could be said that the internet has made reading more accessible - downloading books to kindle.

DH watched porn before he met me. It doesn't think i'm not good enough. He doesn't want to go out and cheat on me - it's just something he enjoys so as long as I don't have to hear all about it, then i'm really not bothered.

fastloris some of that has been claimed in various studies but the type of man a woman is attracted to varies depending on her cycle.
the biological imperative is to mate with a man with high testosterone but to bond with a man with lower testosterone. less dangerous. so one to bring up kids with and another to actually father them.
plus if same woman sleeps with her partner and non partner within her fertile period she is more likely round conceive to the non partner.

or so some studies say.

then again just because it is a biological urge does not actually make it ok to cuckold your husband!?!

it is also a biological urge to kill any of your partners offspring that are not yours.

that said have had partners who were into porn and others who were not. as long as it is not misogynist paedophilic or otherwise illegal or overly offensive or all day long i am not bothered and don't view it as personal.

likewise masturbation. sometimes a solo flight is less hassle.

I wonder if that's a Dawkins ratified version of the evolutionary justification for porn?

I think it depends on how often he is watching it.

If he needs a 'fix' each night before he comes to bed to have sex with you, OP, then imv you can feel offended. If it's for an hour late on a Saturday night, then it's not an issue.

How often do you think of sex, OP? If you're like me, hardly at all, it's not that I am avoiding it but other stuff keeps me busy. So perhaps you (and I) need to loosen up a bit, perhaps sex should pop into your head (is it once a day that women are s'posed to think of it??) now and again and perhaps you should initiate sex with your DH more often so that he sees you in a more sexual way than just a partner and Mum. But maybe you do that already.

Porn is like fast food instant gratification, no hassle and it's also really easy to find.

Standing cheer for Toadinthehole!

If the "need to spread the seed" type arguments were correct, why would contraception be so popular?

Desires can be trained and channelled. I don't agree that they are harmless if left to their own devices. This is not to advocate the suppression of desires, by the way! But I disagree with the general claim that there is no harm in looking.

I think people generally have their own reasons for enjoying it, but it's mostly cos it's there and they can and it makes for a better wank

Syl,

Much of what you say about women is, to be honest, also true for men I think. The truth is that a good deal of conclusions drawn about men's and women's sexuality seems to be heavily influenced by gender stereotyping. I think this is because research into human sexuality is still quite undeveloped, and therefore not particularly robust. Furthermore, although this research is in theory scientific, and therefore carries the imprimatur of scientific infallability, the study of human behaviour as a science is quite a different thing to researching atoms and things like that.

I doubt there's any biological reason for men being more inclined to use porn than women. Unless, that is, porn is defined as visual material. But I don't see why that is so. If "porn" simply means material designed solely to arouse, then 50 Shades of Gray is also porn. Yet for some reason, this awful piece of writing is considered in some way more sophisticated than a top-shelf magazine. It isn't - it just takes longer to get through.

I'm a woman, so I can't really answer your question. These are mine thoughts about porn.

It's terrible when the man makes you feel that you're not good enough. I don't think it's directly linked to watching porn, but more indirectly.

There're man who watch it and their partners are ok with it. These couples do have a good sex life and nothing is wrong with the situation.

When the couple isn't openly communicating about their needs and then the man watches porn and neglects his wife or does it behind her back
That's painful!

That's when you start wandering. Why is he doing that? Am I not good enough for him anymore. Etc.

Man are more interested in sex itself.

Our fantasies are a bit more complicated then mans are. Study's say that a man thinks in every hour at least one time about sex.

That one time could be one second a minute, but not that very long.

With us ladies study say that we think on an average once a day about sex. But that once a day is usually longer then that little second or min the man thinks about it.

We're full of fantasies and things we like. We dream more about everything around sex, not so much about sex itself.
Man don't take us out for a fancy dinner just for the fun of it. They're very happy to skip that part and go straight for sex.

They do all these things for us. Because they very well know that they don't get far if they don't work hard for it.
Even with the dinner, cinema, dancing etc. It's still a gamble for them on what's going to happen later in the evening.

We ladies we can watch Depp, Dicaprio, Pitt and those others for hours!!! We're able to fantasize about them or someone else who we fancy for that same amount of time.

When there is no sexual stimulation anymore or the man had his orgasm his thoughts go back to normal. (same as his penis)
We ladies are able to continue to dream about this perfect man for hours and even days and weeks! Even after we've had our orgasm we're still able to continue with our romantic thoughts. Most man aren't even physical and mentally capable of doing that.

If a man cheats it's just for sex and usually it's a one night stand kind of thing. It usually has got nothing to do with them being unhappy with their partner. It's more curiosity then unhappiness.

A lady who's going to cheat on her partner usually does that with one other man. This isn't a one night stand. This relationship can go on for years without her partner knowing about it.
It's not curiosity that drives a lady into the arms of another man. Usually she's unhappy in her relationship. This other man can give her what she's missing.

Man do find it difficult to talk to us about their feelings and needs. We'd love them to be more open to us, but we don't always make things easy for them.

If a man would say something wrong about sex, her figure or feelings to his wife. He knows that he might and up with objects being throne towards his head.

Followed by millions of questions which usually are the same questions with 1 or 2 minutes of pauses in between.
This happens usually in the middle of the night. Man aren't the best in communication, let alone when they are trying to get some sleep.

That then gets followed by the lady who becomes more and more furious. Leaves the house and goes to a friend. By this lady friend an entire army of ladies is being called together to discuss the matter in all possible ways imaginable.

Years later you say something wrong and before you know it this argument that you thought that had finished years ago starts all over again!!!!

We got to try not to get to quickly upset by what a man tells us. Just stay calm and have a nice chat about things.

As long as the relationship is ok it's usually ok to watch porn or for the lady a movie. But when things are not going well. Then it could be painful for the lady when the man watches porn.

But don't forget man do have feelings too!!!!
They might not like to talk about them. But that doesn't mean that they aren't there.
They sure have them and likewise it also could be painful for the man when the lady is watching these film stars and is dreaming away with them.

A man could be starting to ask himself the very same questions. Am I good enough for her? Am I good enough in bed etc.

I think we ladies are usually much worse when it comes down to watching porn. But in our case it's not called porn and man don't seem to mind it that we do watch these super stars.
I think we spend a lot more time on it then an average man ever would spend on porn.

I also think that's why we are quicker in making a fuss about it. It's difficult to think or to understand that porn is not such a big thing for a man. It's just nice for them and fun. They're still happy with us when they watch it.

Ladies are quicker in thinking that this man on that movie is better then the partner that she has got.
She dreams of being with this other guy. Wishing her partner was more like him.

Because we're quicker into thinking in that kind of way. We're also quicker to judge our man to be like us.
They're similar, but not the same.

Likewise it's because men do know that watching porn isn't like cheating or a sign of being unhappy with their partner. They don't mind what we are watching or thinking.

I'm originally from the Netherlands and we've a saying there:
Zoals de waard is, vertrouwt hij zijn gasten

Translation:
Ill doers are ill deemers. Evil doers are evil dreaders.

I think this phrase goes perfect with this problem. We ladies are very quick in accusing man of what we're doing.
Not understanding that some things are really totally different for a man then it's for us.
We don't need to be so scared of loosing our partner or that he has lost his love for us.

Men don't go for a divorce that quickly. It's us ladies who often go for a divorce, not our husbands.

Ill doers are ill deemers. Evil doers are evil dreaders.

Don't be scared and talk with your partner about your sexual needs. And always work on your relationship/marriage. That doesn't stay well all by itself you both got to work for it.

If one or both partners don't work on it on a regular basis, it'll fall apart.

Just my thoughts about porn.

Sylvia

Never mind evolutionary incentives: there are plenty of examples round the world of cultures that consider women to be just as likely to be promiscuous as men. Even in European culture, this idea that it is normal for men but abnormal for women to want to hop into bed with everything in sight, is really only something that dates from the 18th century onwards. Chaucer and even Shakespeare present a somewhat different picture.

I was listening to a R4 documentary about the problem of shielding teenagers from porn (which I agree is all very laudable). However, what was particularly interesting was the attitude of the presenters (all women) that porn inevitably brought out the basest instincts amongst boys, and spoilt the innocence of girls. It was quite fascinating listening to a bunch of people, all with impeccably liberal and progressive credentials, talking in a manner not very different to their Victorian forebears.

(Of course all this leaves aside literary porn such as 50 Shades of Gray, which for some reason isn't considered)

So why do men look at porn? Because the culture we live in states that it is normal for men (but not women) to do so. Perhaps the better question is why don't more women use porn in one form or another?

Of course they're not LOL.

Let me guess - sex is a sacred and spiritual thing to them and they can only get aroused by their one true love?

And I don't believe that men are hard wired to want to fuck as many women as possible. Ick. Most of the men I know aren't like that.

Because it's arousing... that really is it. I don't think there is any deep seated psychological motivation other than that porn is arousing to watch/look at, and being aroused is a pleasant feeling. And I think it tends to be men rather than women in general who look at it because most porn is made by men for men and so is less attractive to the majority of women.

Nobody needs to look at porn to get aroused, of course (unless maybe they're addicted to it) but it is a very fast and intense way to do so, and it's very mainstream/common/accepted (especially for men) in our society.

I don't think that for most people when they're looking at porn they're thinking "I wish I could have sex with that person", they're just being aroused by watching others having sex or perhaps imagining themselves with their partner in that position/situation/whatever. No more than you might see an attractive actor on TV or something and be a bit about it - doesn't mean you find your DH any less attractive.

I don't personally think there's anything wrong with getting aroused by yourself/masturbating without your partner, if they aren't in the mood for sex or they won't be until later but you want it now or sex seems like too much effort or you just want to do it alone because it's a different feeling and that's what you fancy right now.

I can think of a lot of arguments against porn (I don't like it, personally, at least not the majority of stuff that is out there) but I don't really buy the infidelity one - I just don't think that most people who use it use it in that way. Of course if you think that it is and it's part of a general pattern of behaviour that you're not happy with in general, that's a different issue.

It really is.

Christmas -

Actually while I don't have a reference to hand, I'm pretty sure I remember seeing studies that women ARE more likely to be promiscuous or unfaithful during the most fertile part of their cycle.

Female promiscuity is of course not unheard of (just as women who like porn are not unheard of). But the point is that women, evolutionarily speaking, are massively restricted in the number of offspring they can have. Each requires 9 months' pregnancy, years of breastfeeding as a drain on her time and energy, and the very real risk of death during childbirth. Remember too that for most of our evolutionary history, women would have spent most of their entire adult lives either pregnant or nursing. A woman who is pregnant with a man's child has no evolutionary incentive to shag other men, because she can't get pregnant with their children at the same time. What she CAN do is try and make sure the guy will stick around to maximise the chances of her offspring surviving, through all the means of pair-bonding such as sexual fidelity.

A man, by contrast, can get her pregnant and then go and get a whole load more women pregnant before the sprog even arrives. Sure, it MAY be in his best interest to stick around and ensure that one of them thrives in a strong family. OTOH it may make more sense to just dip the finger in as many pies as possible, so to speak, and trust that at least some are more likely to turn out well that way.

Even better, he can navigate a half-way path. Stick around and support the kids, participating in the pair-bonding and monogamy if only because it keeps the woman faithful (which is necessary to avoid being tricked into investing in kids who are not his own) - and have the odd dabble on the side as well. Insurance policy, if you like.

Hence the happily married man who still eyes up women on the street and looks at porn. It's not going away any time soon.

OP

Another way of looking at it.
I am on a diet it doesn't stop me looking at the cream cakes in the bakers window. It doesn't mean I'm going to go inside and devour every cake in sight. It doesn't mean that I'm not happy with the choice I made to go on a diet. Theres no harm in looking.
I think if it really bothers you talk to him and ask him to explain it to you, tell him how you feel. Is it porn per se you don't like or your dh watching. If its the latter then why not join him and see if you enjoy it. I was certainly converted and definitely no coercion from dh.

Here goes.

I have been happily married for 20 years and so has dh, so he tells me, lol.
We have both had spells of watching porn, mostly together though. I used to think as you do, that maybe it wasn't a good thing and that I didn't satisfy him. He used to do the same as your dh when I tried to talk about it.
Maybe your dh is aware of your feelings and doesn't want to cause a row or make you feel worse about yourself. Your dh is with you because he wants to be, he chose you because he loves you. Porn is fine if all parties agree and only becomes immoral or seedy if your partner is hiding the fact.
Take confidence in your abilities and the love he has for you and believe the porn to be mere titillation and a bit of escapism. Not from you in particular, but life.

ChristmasNmaechange.....read 'Sperm Wars' by Robin Baker. The book discusses different reproduction strategies and tactics. It deals with pornography and masturbation and the normal reasons why.

Being stimulated by watching other people have sex is normal for many people. If you are one of those men or women who do it is down to your particular makeup.

OP - the bigger issues for you are:

a) the communication issues he has ("he changes the subject") and
b) dealing with the fact that you've married someone who doesn't consider your feelings

Sounds pretty selfish to me

Some men watch porn for the same reason some women do, they like sex

But if we are boiling it down to biology, wouldn't it make sense for the woman to have sex with as many men as possible during her most fertile period to maximise her chances of getting pregnant in the first place? Or am I being dense?

I think a lot of it comes down to an extremely strong urge towards promiscuity. The usual evolutionary explanation for this is to do with the difference of investment in offspring between men and women. Women have evolved investing considerable time, pain and risk of death in each child, so each act of sex has greater significance - they are choosier about mates and more intent on ensuring long term security. Men get a better genetic gamble out of having sex as much as possible, with as many women as possible.

Whether one believe's this or not doesn't really matter. The fact remains that the difference in the urgency of the promiscuous urge is there. I really wish women wouldn't take it so personally, because it's got nothing to do with the attractiveness or loveliness of a man's partner. He could be married to a supermodel who makes him deleriously happy, and in most cases he'll still end up looking at porn sometimes. It's just a way to express the part of oneself that monogamy doesn't satisfy. You can believe deeply in monogamy and have a great relationship situation, but it won't just make that other part go away.

some men like watching porn because they think it's entertaining

<yawns>

Why would they need a 'long discussion' if he was interested in water sports?
Surely the issue here is that the OP is uncomfortable with his porn use, whatever that porn may be.