Vaccinations

(94 Posts)
redkaybee Wed 12-Dec-12 03:09:20

Quick question on the controversial topic of vaccinations. I suggested to my gp I would like to consider a delayed vaccination schedule for my daughter. After the 5 in 1 she was inconsolable and now suffers reflux. I do want to vaccinate but not so many all at once. The Ho consulted with st thomases children's hospital and was apparently advised against a spread out schedule so I have been told follow the nhs schedule or I must go private for an alternative schedule. Is there anyone out there in london who has managed an alternative vacc schedule from an nhs gp?
Many thanks in advance

sipper Sat 15-Dec-12 18:19:04

saintlyjimjams that is interesting. Thank you. Will read again tomorrow in more detail as am currently getting ready to go out so I must go and put on my aluminium-free deodorant, chemical free make up....

I have also read somewhere (will have to try and find again) about aluminium and autism - but Al doesn't seem to have been detected in the findings of this particular study. Nonetheless, aluminium has been found in the brains of Alzheimers sufferers so Al still sounds pretty awful to me and I'll still avoid the pans! sad

Unfortunately I can only get the abstract of this atm but it looks like the sort of thing that might be interesting to read. Looks as if it generates quite a few further questions though.

sipper Sat 15-Dec-12 17:45:51

Did I miss something....are we talking about homeopathy now?!! Thanks for the info LeBFG. My POV is that info is key and health & safety, (and not in a hard hat clipboard sort of way...but in a staying healthy and knowing about the safety or lack of safety of things), are vital. Keep an eye on what we are putting into our bodies and weigh up the risks. I hope redkaybee has found the answer to the original question. Such an emotive topic - understandable we've all gone off in various directions!

LeBFG Sat 15-Dec-12 17:35:20

THe thing with aluminium pans is no longer a problem in fact (DH was worried about this one). In any case, the dose maketh the poison (doesn't homeopathy work by diluting the poison to infinitesimal quantities?)...The thing with metabolic pathways is not all heavy metals will be eliminated with the same pathway (I imagine). A lead and ADHD link may exist. But lead isn't in vaccines. And this tells us nothing about aluminium and ADHD.

sipper Sat 15-Dec-12 17:07:54

Thanks LeBFG. As aluminium is not a great thing to have in the body, even in small amounts, I reduce exposure wherever possible e.g. choose products that don't contain it, don't cook with aluminium pans. Once you (and by that I mean 'one', but that sounds too pretentious for what I'm trying to say!) start looking at avoiding it, it's staggering to discover just how many products do contain it. Thankfully a lot can be avoided.

Of course the ability of the body to excrete metals etc is dependent on properly functioning metabolic pathways

My friend's autistic dd's lead levels were so high they had to move out of their house immediately (the exposure) and she was chelated on the NHS. Her younger NT brother's levels were high as well, but nowhere near as high as hers and he did not need chelation. May indicate an individual difference in ability to excrete metals I guess which might be relevant elsewhere. Who knows.

LeBFG Sat 15-Dec-12 16:44:24

Lots for Bruffin to answer sipper - wrt the vaccine/ADHD link I think it's important to rationalise this a bit. The review cites mainly reports about lead and ADHD (one study did look at mercury). The role of aluminium and vaccines have been extensively discussed on MN here. The muscle tissue retains some of the aluminium and with time (6 months from memory) the aluminium is eliminated by the body. I'm inferring a similar thing happens with other heavy metal adjuvants. The doses we are talking about are extremely small (hence I assume they don't need to do smaller doses for premmies/low birth weight babies). We ingest orally far, far more.

bruffin Sat 15-Dec-12 15:20:14

My ds's blue book from 1995 advises between 12 and 18 months, my DD who was born in 97 red book just says one year, but the booster in those days were advised for pre school ie 4/5.

They used to give MMR at 15 months welove (and prior to that 18 months where it works slightly better still).

I think it was moved because Hib was found to need a booster. So it is now given at the same visit as Hib/men C. Presumably this is cheaper that 2 visits, although yes it is a little bit less effective.

sipper Sat 15-Dec-12 14:20:25

Hi Bruffin please can you give more info on this comment from one of your earlier posts? "There is more thermisol in your breastmilk than there ever was in vaccines." Would be really interested to read more; thanks for any info.

Maybe I've misread redkaybee's post but I didn't think it read as saying that the review (from the Journal of Alt and Comp Medicine) stated that vaccines and their toxicity caused autism and ADHD, but more that they the metals is a concern as there does appear to be a link and therefore is keen to consider the pros and cons of putting into the body anything with heavy metals in (such as some vaccinations).

The University of Auckland document is interesting (thank you Bruffin) but is does contain a number of points I find worrying and quite irresponsible/untrue. For one, the document claims absolute safety for immunising infants as young as six weeks. It then adds these infants are at no more adverse risk than older children (so that's not an absolute safety then....) and says the problems are of lower responses to vaccines and therefore reduced protection.

The US vaccination damage programme has paid out billions since its inception. I don't think these payouts are simply for reduced protection. However, sadly it is protected by a separate law that prevents recipients from disclosing details. Interestingly it is also funded by money from the pharmaceutical companies who, instead of being sued directly, have any damage claimants go through this separate system and neatly away from them as manufacturers. Has anyone seen the recent film 'Doctored'? It's makes for interesting viewing.

The Uni doc also mentions that most vaccines are injected directly into muscle tissue. So this would mean it then goes into the lymphatic system and eventually into the bloodstream. Not an idea every parent would relish for their LO so I can quite understand people wanting to know more or not being keen.

It also says 'briefly the following occurs: vaccine antigen disassociates from adjuvant (e.g. aluminium hydroxide). So where does this go? What happens to the aluminium hydroxide? Unless there is absolute proof that this adjuvant is wholly ejected by the body then this is a worrying little fact and with aluminium being implicated in Alzheimers and found in children with autism, it's another area it would be nice to have more research on.

On the subject of the research, the University of Auckland's research institute says this : We have increased our research revenue and capability by developing innovative and strategic partnerships particularly in the food and pharmaceutical industries.

Apologies for typos.... must get back to being Christmassy - decs to put up, tree to admire!

Welovecouscous Sat 15-Dec-12 13:04:35

Bruffin that Uni publication is very interesting. I learned a lot from reading it.

Fascinating to read that mmr is more effective after 15 months. Why does the uk give it at 12 months then? I know this is not true of all pcts, but that is what they do where we live.

LeBFG Sat 15-Dec-12 12:34:51

Good to see you are getting what you want OP. I shalln't get involved in the nitty gritty as you clearly aren't interested in the debate. Just read through the review from the Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine that you link to. Under ADHD and toxic chemicals there is no mention of vaccines [shrug] though indeed autism and ADHD are dealt with. If I was worried about toxic metals in these vaccines I would prefer one jab to five separate ones. But there....not what you want to hear. Hope you are happy with your choices.

sipper Sat 15-Dec-12 12:33:33

Thank you redkaybee very kind of you but I can't take the credit. (As much as I'd love to!). Am very fortunate that my DH, who works in healthcare, is v knowledgeable in these matters. Thank goodness or we'd probably be having to manage a label for life.

If anyone wants to know anything about testing for this prob please do say as am very happy to share the info. The more this is known about the more children might benefit.

redkaybee Sat 15-Dec-12 12:01:06

Thank you saintly and sipper. I will have a look for the alternative clinic. And sipper those links are incredibly interesting . Your experience with your LO is astonishing - so good that you managed to find a way to combat this and prevent a life of difficulties. You are an impressive parent!! Thanks for the insights.

sipper Sat 15-Dec-12 10:58:26

redkaybee re. heavily medicated asthma - have you seen this RCT. Very interesting www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23211647

Oh yes as previous poster said if you want to give standard jabs just with longer gaps that's no problem. They used to be given later and more spread out anyway -you just have to be a little careful about gaps between tetanus jabs, but ask your GP (hopefully they can find out if they don't know).

The problem can be accessing the alternatives as the only options on the NHS are all at once. I had a GP willing to provide a single tetanus but he couldn't get it so ds2 and ds3 have had nothing, as the NHS ones are not an option for them.

I did find a clinic cheaper than baby jabs and located throughout the uk (they go to different places on different days). Maybe google. I have no idea whether they're reliable though - you do know what you're getting with Halvorsen's clinic (we just can't manage trips to London really).

sipper Sat 15-Dec-12 10:46:00

redkaybee Are there any multi's you want to spread out as singles, or is it just that you want to have the remaining vaccinations at dates later than scheduled? If it's the latter then I can't see that the practice can stop you. It is personal choice and whatever the opinions of anyone else - whether pro or anti - you can choose when or even if you want your children to be vaccinated. And if you do choose to delay, the practice/GP will still get it included in their financial incentive, just not at the time initially scheduled.

I know you are not looking for advice on whether to vaccinate or not, but you have received lots of comments regardless - I guess it's such an emotive subject for every single one of us that people can't help but share their thoughts and info. I have my own thoughts from info I have read and am certainly glad to read additional data and comments as without new info I can't learn more. I am a bit horrified to read for instance that the manufacturer's whooping cough vaccine information leaflet says it is not to be used on pregnant women, yet the NHS is recommending it and this is their logic : www.nhs.uk/conditions/pregnancy-and-baby/pages/whooping-cough-vaccination-pregnant.aspx#patient

It does seem there is a mixed message here. On one hand we get told 'there's no evidence for that, it cannot be recommended' (chiropractic for certain conditions for example) but on the other hand we get told 'there is no evidence for that but we have decided it is safe' (the latter being true for many drugs as well as vaccines, when they are prescribed to an age group or population group that the drug or vaccine has not been trialled on).

Sorry, off at a tangent!

The best advice I ever received was from a GP who told me she was not anti-vaccination but pro-information and pro-safety and she told me to read all the NHS information and to also ensure I read non-government sources aswell, as, by her own admission, the NHS information would not convey the complete picture.

Which also leads me to ask, what vaccination studies have ever been carried out by anyone who did not have a vested financial interest? I can't find many/any (?) other than the Wakefield investigation, and when I've delved deeper into that one the findings don't seem to actually find fault with his information but the complaint seems to have initially derived from the root of his funding. He also didn't seem to be claiming the direct 'cause' that the press reported him as claiming, but more of an association that ought to be investigated further.

Back to one of the earlier comments, on the subject of gut problems, this thread might be of interest: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/special_needs_recommendations/1636936-Behavioural-learning-probs-inc-ADHD-gut-dysbiosis-gut-fermentation

redkaybee Sat 15-Dec-12 10:16:48

http://69.164.208.4/files/Nutritional%20and%20Environmental%20Approaches%20to%20Preventing%20and%20Treating%20Autism%20and%20Attention%20Deficit%20Hyperactivity%20Disorder_0.pdf

This link should give you the information you are lacking on autism and ADHD, the facts are that a child with these difficulties has problems detoxifying heavy metals. nutrition plays a great part in welfare and health. And I could not agree less with your thinking that something is exclusively neurological when a holistic approach can alleviate so many symptoms. Alopecia and vitiligo are the autoimmune diseases - and heavily medicated asthma is another problem. As i stated in my original post I was never looking for a debate but help trying to space vaccines - space to allow time for metals to leave the system , space to allow my child to recover from the immune trickery which can always have a negative response ( this is why i can't find a doctor who will give any guarantees - and before you jump in I know there is no guarantee my child will not catch a disease but it is I who is choosing to inject her with antigens - she is not catching a vaccine)
So no, I disagree , spacing vaccines is not the worst of both worlds. It should be an option available to thos who have considered the vaccine/ non vaccine debate who want to protect their child but in a less aggressive mode.

LeBFG Sat 15-Dec-12 07:21:49

Well, age isn't an indication (Bruffin's link is really informative). Reflux? I don't think anyone would say this was an indication to not vaccinate tbh (vaccines are intramuscular). I'm even surprised you made the link - it would never have occured to me.

So much changes so quickly when they're little - I'm in the middle of terrible time at the moment - no sleep, moaning and whining, totally out of character, all started overnight and still going on weeks later....but DS is 21 mo and hasn't seen a vax for ages. I'm just trying to make the point that even when things seem correlated, it's not proof they are.

I think you know the research on autism. I've not seen/looked for any research on vaccines and ADHD - perhaps you could link? I know very little about ADHD so correct me if I'm wrong but I've always thought ADHD was exclusively a brain disorder/imbalance not an immune one.

In any case, if I was really worried vaccines would trigger autism/ADHD in my DS, I wouldn't vaccinate....or I would avoid only those vaccines supposedly linked...or I would vaccinate considering the risks from disease were greater. I wouldn't choose to spread vaccines. Worst of both worlds surely.

ArthurPewty Sat 15-Dec-12 07:14:39

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ArthurPewty Sat 15-Dec-12 07:12:28

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

redkaybee Sat 15-Dec-12 02:21:59

LeBFG - her age is an indication, the reflux she developed after her 5 in 1 indicates to me that her gut cannot take it. It's incredibly hard to watch a content happy baby turn into a baby screaming with pain on a daily basis - when one can do nothing to help.
Leoni do you believe the autism symptoms would have been the same with vaccinations ? My daughters father has terrible ADHD - his life is severely compromised. She has a one in three chance of developing it. Trials indicate vaccinations are linked to ADHD. I would like to do anything in my capability to prevent the ADHD occurring/becoming pronounced. How has the health of your children been besides the autism?

ArthurPewty Fri 14-Dec-12 20:43:39

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

bruffin Fri 14-Dec-12 14:53:28

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