Anyone else with a child that tantrums aged 5+

[Pennies]

My DD2 was 5 in December. She's a very effusive child and lots of fun when she's on form. The thing is she also is effusive in her negative moods and her anger is full on and immediate. As an example I told her I was making her scrambled eggs on toast this morning and she was initially happy. She then wanted a banana to eat whilst I was making it and I said no. She went into total screaming tears immediately and tried to convince me that I had said yes to her eating a banana before I said no (which I absolutely didn't). This is the second time today she had tried to convince me that I'd OK' something when I hadn't. She lies like this all the time and about other stuff too.

Her immediate and loud tears drive me nuts. I've put up with it for 5 years now I've lost the ability to tolerate it. There was an incident in the car yesterday which caused her to scream loudly and distract me so I ended up totally screaming back at her. This morning I lost the plot too and shouted incredibly loud and slammed my hand onto the table. This is not how I want or like to parent and it makes me feel that I'm not a fit parent if I can't keep my temper. I ended up in tears too this morning.

There isn't a single day when she doesn't have a tantrum about something (usually something very minor as well) or do something that gets her into trouble (e.g. antagonising her big sister or tormenting the cat). I've taken down all the pictures in her room as a punishment. She's been sent to her room to cool off innumerable times, she's had toys confiscated, I've tried stickers and playdates as rewards for good behaviour - about every trick in the book. It's just in her nature to be like this and I am at an utter loss in how to cope and as a result I'm struggling to keep my temper and more often that not I'm losing it and end up really shouting at her. So I'm here asking for any help / similar experiences (particularly of parents of children who were like this but are now older - what are they like now?).

Just to close - when she is in a good mood (and she can revert to a good mood in minutes / seconds after a tantrum, as if nothing ever happened) she is like having a ray of sunshine in the house. She's got genius comic timing and delivery and often has us all in stitches , she sings all the time, she also knows how to behave because she confirmed that she would never throw a tantrum like she does at someone else's houses. She has rather volatile and fickle relationships with other children in her class, but they do at that age don't they (except my DD1 who didn't...).

All help, advice or shared experiences very welcome. I need to learn how to parent her better because she's always had this in her. I jest that she's still pissed off about being born. I don't see her changing much so I think the shift in focus needs to come from me. But how?

Hi Pennies,

Your DD sounds like a female version of my 5 year old DS! Your description of her would be exactly how I would describe my DS's personality.He came out of school in a terrible mood today ( because I would't buy him every single book at the Book week book sale!).I just said to him "I really don't know how to make you happy today" and he replied "I'm tired and I want a cuddle and you haven't given me one today" So a quick cuddle solved that situation! I was obviously in a patient calm mood today so it didn't escalate into a public screaming fit! Another time would have ended up with me shouting and him hitting and kicking me ( even though I have never ever laid a hand on him). I have come to the conclusion that this is his personality and he will always have a temper that he will have to learn to control as he gets older. I'm dreading the teenage years as he is already big enough to hurt me if he wants to! I'm looking forward to you getting some positive advice from others who have been through this and come out the other side in one piece! Can I just ask you if your DD is well behaved at school like my DS is? He saves his temper tantrums for me it seems!

Mumleigh - thank you for your reply. Yes we had a moment at the book fair as well I recall.

You're doing better than me - I have resorted to smacking her on occasion. It hasn't changed anything and I can see it's a futile and horrible way to tackle it so we won't be going back there.

In response to your question at school she's a good student (bright girl and doing well) but she's a fidget, doesn't listen and also I think she gets other children into trouble by encouraging them to do naughty things. Not great.

I had a feeling you would say she is bright - mine is too ( too clever for his own good at times!).I don't use smacking as I don't believe it helps but my parents and my in laws all say that I should and I get fed up defending my no smacking stance.

My son can be like this too, he was 5 in November. I think (hope) the tantrums are getting fewer.

Trying to think of practical things that have worked for us:

• Like you, I lost my tolerance and would end up shouting. Trying to change this, my approach was to engage less in the arguing so it didn't end up on an inevitable course towards tantrumsville. This has two advantages:

1. you keep your cool. This is the aim really, because it's a vicious circle when you get wound up, then you're cross and feel guilty that you've shouted, etc.

2. sometimes a non-commital 'Hmm?' or a couple of questions like 'Really?' or 'Why's that?' can get them to tell you what they're thinking rather than blowing up. I sometimes think that my son is addicted to arguing with me, and by effectively refusing to argue, I can take the wind out of his sails. It's quite hard work to remember to stay in that 'Zen' state though.

• I have found that reward/threat systems don't work. Threatening to take something away just makes my son panic and pushes the emotions up a notch. Rewards, I can't quite explain why it doesn't work (for us), but in a kind of similar way to the threats - it pushes the emotions up and makes everything a bit more 'high stakes' for him, (if that makes sense?), when my aim is to play down the high drama.

Also, like your dd, my ds is funny, intelligent, loving, and a joy to be around a lot of the time. (Will try to remember that when he won't put his shoes on in the morning!)

Mumleigh, interesting you say you said you didn't know how to make him happy today. My 5 yo has similar I think, I recognise a lot of what people are saying, but I take the line that this (whatever it is) is what is happening, (and I do say that his general behavior does influence my choices) but that it is up to him to choose whether to be happy or not. I might try your line and see if works for us.

He often says he's in a bad mood on the outside, I tell him that it's fine to be a ba dmood on the inside but he still has to behave properly/be polite/have manners etc on the eoutside.

I agree with FouxDuFaFa about not engaging. I've started being "stricter" in the interests of self-preservation and refusing to discuss the detail. "How much" vegetable does he need to eat to get pudding? If he does this but not that how much later can he stay up?

And not making (vague) promises about the future - "can I play on the computer after school? "Yes probably, if you behave". Then suddenly we're going out, back at bedtime and there's a tantrum because he was "promised" computer time today. Now I just say I'll see when the time comes.

My DS is 5.5 and still has tantrums - less frequently but still freaking out hitting ones maybe once every 2-3 months and just meltdown ones at least once a month if not once a week.

The PP's tips are pretty much what I would suggest and what worked for me when they were much more frequent. I read (out of sheer desparation) 1-2-3 Magic. It was really great actually. Very simple premise - counting for bad behaviour - 1st offence is a '1', second or continuation is a '2' if they hit 3 its naughty step. After they serve their time they're allowed off - without a lecture. Forgive and forget, clean slate every time. (You can also have an automatic '3' for more serious misdemenours!)

Aims to get you out of the negative spiral (she's doing something, you're annoyed, you expect bad behaviour, she continues with bad behaviour - obv not as cause and effect as I've written but you get the gist). And takes the emotional aspect out of discipline - very simple/no thinking/stressing rules, no room for discussing why she's done something/her not listening/getting annoyed/you getting more annoyed by her lack of listening endless circle of irritation.

I'd highly recommend getting the book - don't have to read page to page, just skim first few chapters.

once I felt more in control and sure of my plan, I found it a lot easier to stay calm and not lose my temper.

BTW...I will impose restrictions (taking stuff away/no TV) but for major things. most things can be naughty stepped. With my DS taking too much stuff away too often just led him to be more sullen, much less willing to comply. 123 magic was part of that and having fun the rest of the time and showing him I was on his side was the other.

Only other thing I pickd up and find helpful is to choose your battles. I know we went through a phase of trying to make his behavious better by being more strict on big and little things - but that just made things a lot worse.

It can feel like an uphill battle sometimes with a spirited DC (mine too is so funny, loving,smart, gentle and just generally wonderful too). I will be following this thread with interest for stories of how at the age of 6 3/4 they all suddenly become super compliant, get amazing hearing, patience, etc.....

Another one here, ds just turn 6 and has a terrible temper with violent outbursts. I definitely agree with not ingaging in arguments, do anything to distract, sing, ask a different question, etc. And I have tried to stay away from the vague promises too. My ds is ever so sensitive to being tired or hungry - he is wiry and really energetic and runs out of steam all of a sudden. I find it really helps to get breakfast into him quickly and make sure he gets a snack if a meal is going to be delayed. He wakes up most mornings quite volatile and has to be coaxed into eating breakfast, after which he is usually a different creature!

Thank you for your responses. It is interesting to read everyone's descriptions of their spirited children and there's some good advice here. I'm particularly struck by how it seems that with all of us the processes of sanctions and / or rewards seem to have little or no effect on children like ours.

bugsonbuns - you mentioned hearing. My DD's teacher was convinced she had a hearing problem. he son has one and my DD was exhibiting similar behavioural patterns to him. I took DD to have her hearing tested and was totally unsurprised to discover that her hearing is above average. So her not hearing is actually her not listening.

The 123 Magic book sounds interesting, but I'm intruiged as to the lack of explanation of why the child has done wrong and been punished. For example, this morning's tantrum about the banana wasn't a 123 situation. She went straight to postal right from the word "no" so would I then just send her to the naughty step without saying why? And when she's calmed down is there no discussion about why she was sent to the naughty step?

Also, the thing about promises is something of a theme. DD seems to think that I've said something can happen purely because she wants it to happen. In my OP I said she lies, but thinking about it this evening I've concluded that maybe she actually somehow convinces herself that a conversation has been had between us about it and permission given when in reality we've not even discussed it. Because she utterly believes that a promise has been made she feels hugely indignant and cheated. I can't see how I can do anything about this.

Bugger....just typed reply but my puter ate it. 123 magic could be used for banana-gate but will post tomorrow....

Off to bed but wanted to post so very briefly - in my experience ds tantrums get worse when I have got out of control I can recognise this now and have to take a step back - what works for me is calmly telling him I can't help him when he is like this and to come and talk when he's calm and then completely ignore and don't get drawn in to discussion until he is calm, sometimes he has to go to his room for this if hes completely postal!
Taking things away don't work for us either but spontaneous rewards do - let's watch a film together as eating your dinner nicely made mummy very happy, also never give in the little buggers they remember!!
It is tough having a 'spirited' child - but they have fab personalities!

Wow you have just described my DD2 she's just turned 5 and has a full blown screaming tantrum every other day.

She's very intelligent and gets so frustrated with life, things like not being able to put her hair in a pony tail will set her off.

Like halfcaff my dd (turned 6 in December) is very thin and is horrendous on low blood sugar.She is much more likely to throw a paddy about something if she needs food,and the crash from a sugar rush if she's had sweets can be tricky.She is also a funny, clever,sparky child.Actually she's not a major tantummer,(that job has been taken by my younger dd),but she has noticable flash points and hunger is the biggy,hungry plus tired can end in floods of tears over something minor,or stroppy bolshy behaviour.I agree with henwelly that if I lose control everything goes horribly wrong and I've got better at staying calm,reassuring,but firm.(unless I'm tired and hungry too......oh dear)

banana-gate. LOL.

hellymelly - my DD is very petite indeed but she eats well - if she had her own way though she'd snack all day and not sit down for any meals, except breakfast. She LOVES breakfast.

close to 10 YO DD is the same. We've generally found that when she has a major meltdown it's to do with low blood sugar.
The difficulty is, she has only said she was hungry three times in her life. She doesn't seem to recognise the feeling of needing to be fed.

Have just read back my post from last night and I think I was already asleep!!! Sounds like im the one tantruming!!

When I say I have got out of control I mean that the tantrums can spiral when you get cross with them - for me this can happen over a few days - I get mildy cross with him, he then steps it up until i'm shouting and so on iyswim - and what they say about any attention is good for kids is soo true, DS loves winding up DP for attention, especially at dinner!

My DD (nearly 6) has them. She tends to be quite moody, ie, sometimes very cheerful, but given to glumness, especially when she's tired. My DW, who is quite intense and can snap a bit, can often get locked into a bit of a spiral with DD.

I find distracting with a bit of attention and humour often helps. Not all the time of course, because sometimes the meltdowns happen because of something she doesn't want, e.g. giving a messy bedroom the binbag treatment.

A plea to parents who find themselves locked into distructive rows with their children - when your other half wants a quick word with you in private, let them.

I have a 5 1/2 DD, 2 1/2 DS, they're tantrums are more or less the same! Today we had one at 6am cause my DP wouldn't unclip DD's scooter so she could ride it round the house..she did come into our room and wake us up to sort the scooter, I got up explained it was too early for her to be up and she couldn't ride it in the house anyway and we'll go out on it at the weekend...major tantrum erupted, at 6.15am I'm sorry but no 'magic' is gonna work for me! I told her she had 5 minutes to stop screaming before she woke her DB and DS up, she did eventually calm down. I generally leave her for a bit, then try to talk to her, 'I don't like this naughty girl, where has my good girl gone etc'. I have also noticed, the hunger thing being a trigger, the main one's are tiredness and just not getting her own way! Sometimes I find myself giving in to a biscuit 20 mins before dinner just to avoid it. Like I said she had a 2 1/2 brother and 18 m sister, I can see sometimes she doesn't feel like she isn't getting enough attention, but she is the one who gets taken out alone for special treats, by myself,her dad or grandparents, goes to friends etc but it's the day-to-day things that get to her I think, like getting them dressed and she has to do it herself, I do help her sometimes if I know she is really tired. It's so hard to get the balance right isn't it.
My DD is a lovely girl,( when gettign her own way!) very polite, caring, kind funny etc, I have also noticed she likes to be a mini-mummy, and when put back in her place she doesn't like at all.
Haven't been much help to OP sorry. I feel soemtimes the more we share these kind of sties the more 'normal' it becomes and maybe easier for us to deal with not be feeeling 'what have I done wrong....My DD often reminds me I'm 5 can't be good all the time Mum! x

Your daughter will not stop screaming and having tantrums as long as you scream and have tantrums because of her behaviour. You cannot expect a child to learn not to do that if you reaffirm it by displaying the same behaviour.
I would work on myself keeping calm before I even began to try to change her behaviour.
You say you have been putting up with this for 5 years ? - Well,..she has been learning it for 5 years.

Davsmum - I haven't been screaming at her for 5 years. It's just that I've put up with it for 5 years trying all sorts of different methods none of which seem to work. I was seriously ill last year and my ability to tolerate this kind of stuff has dwindled considerably so I'd say it's only in the last 3 months that I've really come to my wits end with it. I know it's not the right way to tackle it, and have already acknowledged that. And if it's a learnt thing then how come DD1 doesn't scream or tantrum? I think that this is more in her nature than a learned response

My prone-to-tantrums child is my oldest, I'd be interested if that's the case for others too. I sometimes wonder whether it's a product of birth order.

my middle two boys can be like this, particulary the just 6 yr old.

my solution is to give them a chance to calm down and TALK to me, i do repeat to them that they are big enough to talk and then i will listen to them but i will NOT put up wiht tantrums and if they continue they go to the bottom of the stairs or to bed until they have calmed down and apologised.

like your child they can come on straight away simply because i say no for example to ds3 having an apple right before dinner, they get very wearing but i really try not to respond and basically give them very little attention.

once they have calmed down and apologised we will have a cuddle and talk about whatever the issue was.

i really do think some children just have this kind of temprement, my eldest never tantrumed at all! not even as a toddler.

and yes like has been said they are both bright boys, ds3 is an angel at school, ds2 is more distractable and needs to be stimulated and stretched, luckily he has a teacher who realises this.

other tips are making sure that they are not hungry/thirsty as this makes tantrums worse and also realising when they are tantruming through sheer tiredness, i get this with ds3 a lot, particulary towards the end of the week after 4/5 full days at school he is tired and i try and make sure that he sits and does something quiet when he comes in from school, drawing/colouring or even just watching some tv or playing on the ds, he just needs to sit and chill out a bit, which is perfectly reasonable.

the other thing i find is also to make sure that they do get the chance to play outside and be loud/screamy boisterous etc, i explain to them that there are circumstances where they can be loud but NOT in the house and not with a tantrum.

i havent read the whole thread so apologies if i am repeating what others have said etc.

Pennies.
DD1 is a different child to DD2. Her place in the family is not the same as DD2 - and yes, personality will play a part.

Choose a method and stick to it until it does work ?

Often, mums will try something for a few days ( or not even that long) and then give up or chop and change because it isn't working immediately.
A behaviour that has gone on for 5 years will not stop overnight and often a child will get worse when you enforce a new rule/method.
Each time you give up I think you are making it easier for the child to continue.