to think that the NHS should NOT be privatised?

(90 Posts)
LeftWingTwat Tue 26-Feb-13 09:17:59

I am not arguing for no reform, all organisations can end up with waste/corruption etc. etc. However, reform doesn't NOT have to mean privatisation.

It is a myth the private sector is more efficient, what it is is more profitable, but profit has become the measure of success. Profit should not be the measure of success for healthcare. It should have no part of healthcare. When it does we can see the stark results in the US and it is US companies who are circling. US companies who have spent billions, billions of dollars lobbying their own government for the right to make enough off healthcare to not only have enough for themselves but have billions surplus to lobby with. While people die.

Privatisation of healthcare is based on the myth that people's healthcare experience won't change too much, that you will still be able to afford what you have now. This will not happen.

The government promised to protect the NHS. The government, elected without majority, is deliberately taking it apart piece by piece without mandate from the people, this is not democracy. The government is taking it apart without consulting the people. Governments are supposed to be the servants of the people, our representatives, rather than our masters, cutting up and parceling out what we pay for in taxes for their own profits and for the profits of companies beyond our democratic reach. Companies that will not just suck out money from the system but from our country in tax loopholes and tax havens.

This affects us all.

LurkingBeagle Tue 26-Feb-13 10:48:17

Please try to keep up. You mentioned deaths, I said that criticising the NHS was treated in a similar way to blasphemy.

I live in a country with no MRSA problem in either its public or private hospitals. The healthcare staff here are appalled that we still have Crimean-style wards and shared bathrooms. They think that's revolting and backward (which it is). Of course, no one will ever admit that's an infection control issue. I have no idea whether it explains the whole MRSA issue.

The NHS should not be revered. There are 1200 deaths (at least) for which it would be responsible. Imagine the uproar if that was Nestle or ICI?

StormyBrid Tue 26-Feb-13 10:52:34

The NHS is broken and has been for some time.

This statement is made an awful lot. What is the evidence for it, please? Honest question, not trying to start a fight.

meddie Tue 26-Feb-13 10:52:34

MRSA does appear in private hospitals. I have personal experience of this from a friend who contracted it after her boob job.
The thing is in the NHS a lot of patients are routinely swabbed for it on admission or soon after and regularly throughout and the figures are published, not so in private hospitals.

My friends private surgeon, refused to treat her festering breast, but eventually offered to remove the implant to allow the infection to clear (at a cost) and to re implant at a later date (again at a cost).
She was eventually treated by the NHS at NO cost, as the private hospital basically wiped their hands of her.
She is having a hard time getting any information for the legal case she is trying to take out against the private provider who have left her badly scarred. they are not interested at all.

sleepyhead Tue 26-Feb-13 10:52:39

We could have a system like France or Germany if we wanted, but we'd have to pay a lot more for it. Is that ok everyone?

UK spends 7.5% of GDP on healthcare
France spends 9.4%
Germany spends 10.8%

US spends 13.9%

LeftWingTwat Tue 26-Feb-13 10:53:58

Please try to keep up.

I'm starting to enjoy your little put downs! Do you know you're doing it?!

It's not treated in the similar way to blasphemy! If only people in history were merely talked at a little forcefully if they blasphemed!! That was my point.

But Nestle does cause deaths, but apparently third world babies are too niche an issue...

As I've stated, there IS a place for reform. I do not think that reform should be mass privatisation.

Anti-privatisation DOES NOT equal anti-reform!

sleepyhead Tue 26-Feb-13 10:54:12

(Switzerland spends 10.9%)

LurkingBeagle Tue 26-Feb-13 10:56:04

Sleepy - if it were all about GDP we would have seen a huge improvement when the % increased to 7.5% from its previous, abysmally low level. <waits for someone to blame Thatcher> Instead, we saw healthcare staff get exponential pay rises.

Meddie - that's all anecdotal. FWIW when I lived in the UK, I was only ever swabbed for MRSA while being admitted to my local BMI hospital. Incidentally, it also had A&E and intensive care.

LurkingBeagle Tue 26-Feb-13 10:58:42

Of course I know I am doing it. You are also proving my point about the number of capital letters and exclamation marks used in a sentence being indirectly proportional to the writer's IQ.

Are you familiar with the expression about the person who is not a socialist at 18 having no heart? I hope you are under 30. wink

LurkingBeagle Tue 26-Feb-13 11:00:30

I would start reform with staff pay and (more importantly) pensions. Then I would sack the Chief Exec. People involved in what is basically torture at Stafford should be punished pour encourager les autres.

BridgetBidet Tue 26-Feb-13 11:04:45

Too late, it already is. Many providers are private companies now. Most GPs are, care services and private providers are moving in to all areas of the NHS. They still operate under the NHS umbrella but they are most definitely private.

Support services such as auxillary nursing, porters, laundry, food, cleaners etc have already been privatised in the majority of places and the rest will follow.

Very sad. Look at where privatising the utilities and trains has got us.

sleepyhead Tue 26-Feb-13 11:04:46

Fine, LurkingBeagle, but my experience of people in the UK is they want great services for fuck all.

I know a lot of people living in Europe under various state/private healthcare systems. They never wax as lyrical about them as British people do (moan about the bills a lot though, or the amount of slack families are expected to take up in the care of relatives in hospital). Maybe familiarity breeds contempt wherever you are.

LeftWingTwat Tue 26-Feb-13 11:06:16

LurkingBeagle

I know you know you're doing it, I was highlighting your mode of argument which includes subtly belittling people as a form of undermining them.

Sorry to disappoint in all your assumptions about me, I see message boards as an extension of spoken language not a modified form of essay, and so I type here more closely to how I speak! With a bit of bloody passion!!

LeftWingTwat Tue 26-Feb-13 11:08:34

my experience of people in the UK is they want great services for fuck all.

Mass unfounded generalisation!

LeftWingTwat Tue 26-Feb-13 11:09:09

Oh fuck, I'm getting sucked in to the pointlessness! So easy to do apparently!

LurkingBeagle Tue 26-Feb-13 11:09:38

I have never waxed lyrical about the NHS (other than to complain about appalling care).

The fear of NHS treatment is one of the main reasons why I no longer live in the UK (although I appreciate my experiences were extreme). Here, my employer pays my insurance (so it costs me nothing) and the hospitals are sparkling. It's all private.

Even 7.5% of GDP is too much for an organisation that has killed 1,200 in the worst circumstances imaginable. It's terrifying how the left-wing media just wants to sweep that under the carpet.

LurkingBeagle Tue 26-Feb-13 11:10:40

LWT - If I was subtle, I apologise. I certainly didn't meant to do that.

Yadnbu. The NHS stands for National Health System & was created to benefit all.
If this government comes in & throws it all away, there will be many of us that won't be able to afford treatment or contraception.
Can you imagine the impact on the country if this is taking place?-It will be catastrohic, and clearly wrong on all levels.

Cancer treatment, diabetes, thiroid treatment, aids/hivtreatment, birth care, postnatal/prenatal care, dementia....the list goes on-Only the heavily rich will be afforded treatment.

I hope to never see the day this happens in mine or my childrens life.

It may not be perfect, but it's there and for some life-saving as well as life-improving.
Remember we as people don't see all sides of the NHS, we only hear of the bad on the News & in the tabloids.
It doesn't mean there isn't any excellent work being done, they just don't report it.
Having seen all the help my late brother got for his cancer & the treatment he was given, i can truly say there is very good being done by the NHS, yes some bad points in one hospital but without the NHS he wouldn't even have lived for the short space of time he did without the treatment he recieved. And yes i am thankful to the NHS for giving me extra time with my little brother.

JustGiveMeFiveMinutes Tue 26-Feb-13 11:22:47

In my experience (as somebody with a DH who has complex medical needs) I believe parts of the NHS are broken. We've been forced to revert to private services which we don't want to do and which costs a fortune. If we didn't do this DH would be unable to walk. He'd have no quality of life and wouldn't be able to walk. His needs are concerned with one of the 'Cinderella' aspects of the NHS. Not glamorous, underfunded, undervalued.

If anybody believes we are immoral for using private healthcare, pm me. I'd be happy to explain in less vague terms (don't want to be outed) why that's an unfair accusation.

EuroShaggleton Tue 26-Feb-13 11:32:54

The NHS is not a good system. I would be surprised if anyone who has lived in Europe and experience the healthcare systems in most European countries would come back and think the NHS is great.

The US system is a terrible system, and I would not like to see it adopted here. However, I would like to see the best elements of the systems that operate in other European countries introduced here. I've experience two European systems when living overseas and they were both far superior to the NHS. It annoys me that whenever this debate comes up, the line about not wanting the US system here is always dragged up, when in fact just about every other developed country has a non-NHS system that is superior to the US one. We should be looking to those.

meddie Tue 26-Feb-13 12:38:45

Under private systems what would happen with people who had severe and lifelong complex needs? I,m thinking particularly of children born with either a congenital problem or for example extremely premature infants left with cerebral palsy/epilepsy/severe developmental delay?

Their care and treatment costs must run into millions if you include benefits, house adaptions, mobility allowances,physio input, respite care, hospital admissions, special educational needs, long term tube feeding,incontinence products, wheelchair adaptions as they grow, sleep aids. long term drugs.home care packages if required.

Would they just get the basics, like drugs and hospital admissions and a very basic wheelchair. How willing would private companies or insurance policies be to take on the complex needs of these children.

crashdoll Tue 26-Feb-13 12:46:36

I don't think anecdotes about good and bad care are really that helpful when looking at the system as a whole. I've had good and bad both privately and on the NHS - there are flaws in both systems as well as huge advantages.

Exactly my point meddie, not everyone will have to funds to support their needs.
The NHS should stay free imo, that's what taxes are for.
This government should keep their filthy rich hands off our NHS, because not everyone has a golden goose to afford being alive.

Lets hope we never go back to the days of before the nhs, workhouses etc.

elastamum Tue 26-Feb-13 12:49:47

The NHS desperately need reforming. No where else could you have a scandal thet kills 1200 people through neglect (thats 300 jumbo jets full BTW) and NOBODY is prosecuted. There are 5 other trusts being investigated and a further 15 that should be. But becuase its the NHS, there is silence from the politicians on this. Can you imagine what would happen if a private compnay did this.

My own personal experiences of the NHS in recent years have been similarly depressing. My mum died of advanced cancer after having been seen by several doctors and discharged from hospital because 'there was nothing wrong with her. ' WE found the tumour in her jaw, by looking in her mouth. We took her false teeth out - not exactly radical.

My DS has been seen 6 times by various different HCP's recently. Thats 6 assessments over a 3 month period and no one is yet treating him. He is now being treated privately, because it is the only way we can stop him being bounced from doctor to doctor, with each person just wanting to get him off their list. He is being treated because we have the knowledge and resources to get round the system. The old, the weak and the vulnerable are being failed on a daily basis.

The money wasted on non core services (such as trust marketing WTF!) is shocking. No private company would survive on that basis. And its not free BTW - we pay for it by taxes.

I'm not sure privitisation is the answer. But until the government accepts that the NHS system is broken - it wont get fixed

I'm not saying, it doesn't need reforming. It indeed does, but in no way, shape or form should it ever be privatised.

iliketea Tue 26-Feb-13 13:01:28

The problem with privatisation us that healthcare then becomes profit-driven. It doesn't make things better (look at social care provision as example). And has been said before, there is it profitable treat healthy(ish) individuals who need one.intervention every so often, but what about those with the most complex needs? I am worried how thr most vunerable people in society will be affected - and in changes with any health / social care provision it is the most vunerable who are.affected most severely. I think reform is necessary, although reforms must be given time to be effective. For many years, the NHS has undergone constant reform, and it seems that none are ever implemented long enough to show full effect.

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