To take 2 infectious-poxy children out in public...

(347 Posts)
morecakerequired Wed 16-Jan-13 12:44:35

My DTs have the pox. (spots still appearing so definitely still infectious) Last week my DD1 had it and we spent the whole week indoors as a result. (DS went to and from school by himself) This week I am having to do the school run as DD1 is too young to go with just DS for supervision due to the 2 busy roads to cross. I am taking DTs up to the school in their buggy with the rain cover over them - standing away from other people and leaving as soon as kids are in/out. (we live a 2 min walk from the school)

SO - WIBU to carry on after the school run and take the DTs out for a walk and maybe even go into the small local supermarket to pick up some essentials? WIABU to perhaps take the rain cover off if there were no other people around on the street at that time?

I am so fed up of being stuck in the house and DTs are too - 2 weeks is just too long - and I really think we would all benefit from some fresh air. I can't let them go out into the garden just now as it is under a foot of snow and I don't think getting cold and wet playing in the snow would really help them.

I don't think I'm being unreasonable, but a few of the mums at school have made pointed remarks about how I had better hope there are no pregnant mums/people with low immune systems in the playground so just wondering if taking them for a walk will be bad too? AIBU to think that in a buggy with a rain cover over them and not actually coming into direct contact with anyone they aren't going to infect anyone?

(perfectly happy to accept if IABU - genuinely curious)

StoicButStressed Tue 22-Jan-13 12:19:42

Have just realised that whilst referenced fact I caught CP during pregnancy - with all the obvious risks both to me and DS (and YES, IN SPITE OF HAVING ALREADY HAD CP AS A KID DEAR SNOWY ) - I haven't actually written what it was LIKE to have it whilst pregnant....

Tiggytape pointed out that I shouldn't be steaming (^at fact I was 'told' how 'highly irresponsible' I had been!^) as what had written may have been of value to others, and she is RIGHT. Soooo.... if you have the mare of being stuck inside with DCs having CP (& yep, been there 3 times so KNOW how stir crazy it gets) but should you be in ANY doubt about the horror it causes, I'm going to spell it out.

Poor angel3 lost her baby at 12 weeks. I and my DS could have died. We were very, very lucky. But THIS is how awful it is, as you do NOT get the nice chance of 'mild' CP if contract when preggers. I had spots - and the obvious itching and pain of each of them - smothering my entire body. They covered my scalp under my hair. They were IN my ears. They pervaded my vagina (sorry, just being direct here). There is a photo of JUST my back with over 150 dots of calamine lotion on. No choice but to take Acyclovir (retro virus drug) to try and protect us both save our lives. Then needed hefty anti-emetics to counter the effects of that. And on and on and f*cking on. It was the most excruciating thing I can recall and made childbirth (which I've done 3 times with no pain relief) - and apologies for bluntness but want to drive this home - look like a piece of p*ss. So even if it DOESN'T kill you and/or your child, it is an utterly horrific thing to bear as there is NO SUCH THING AS MILD CP IF CONTRACTED WHEN PREGNANT.

And THAT is of course not even touching on the horror of dealing with a child who has cancer vs selfish dick exposing that child to an illness that could kill them. Etc etc et-bloody-cetera.

Again, kudos to OP for genuinely asking for views, but to ANYONE who has a DC they KNOW has CP, if you do not stay in you DO need to know you are knowingly risking the lives of others.

<breathes>....

ProudAS Tue 22-Jan-13 11:57:49

Mimishimi do you think you may have had hand, foot and mouth first time round? It does sometimes get mistaken for CP.

I saw an interesting article about getting CP twice. It seemed to be more likely the younger you are the first time.

CultureMix the checkout woman was out of order. You can't live on thin air especially after keeping your DS isolated for several days. Even if she had genuine concerns she could have put them more politely.

CultureMix Tue 22-Jan-13 04:19:05

I hadn't seen the latest postings on this thread before I posted myself. Stepping away now before I get flamed then.

CultureMix Tue 22-Jan-13 04:13:17

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

angels3 Tue 22-Jan-13 00:59:59

Well as harsh as this may sound I think you are taking precaitions regarding school but otherwise totally crazy about going out.
Unfortunately I am one of those adults who had not had chickenpox and was not naturally immune. I caught it at 11wks and lost my baby the day before my 12wk scan. I had to be isolated and the midwives all wore infection control suits.
It was the most dreadful experience of my life!
So get a grip and stay at home! It is not forever!!!!!!

Mimishimi Mon 21-Jan-13 23:57:53

Snowy, if I had known that I was not immunized for chickenpox, I definitely would have got immunized before my first pregnancy. The fact that I didn't know, for both my pregnancies, makes me absolutely shudder now. Something like 30% of pregnancies where the mother has contracted varicella experience serious complications and a significant number of those pregnancies result in stillborn deaths. Like many, I just assumed it was a routine childhood vaccination. I had no idea that a vaccine was only developed in Japan in 1974 and came into the universal childhood vaccination program in the US/Australia in 1999-2000. Even both my parents and those of DH assumed we had been vaccinated for it (we've asked both in the past couple of weeks).

BoffinMum Mon 21-Jan-13 23:18:07

Wonder why they vaccinate for CP in the US and not here?

StoicButStressed Mon 21-Jan-13 22:27:40

From tiggytape - most succinct and apposite post on whole thread:

The rest of society is responsible for 1 week in every lifetime for not going out and spreading CP needlessly to others. Its not too much to ask when the consequences are so awful.

tiggytape Mon 21-Jan-13 22:17:21

Wishing your DS and your family all the best Sharpy. It is unimaginable for you all to have to go through so much and I don't blame you for feeling anger at those whose own experience of childhood illness is very easy in comparison yet would risk those who suffer so much.

Stoic - Don't be steaming. At least your post and experience shows everyone something valuable. There are no such thing as ‘vulnerable people’. We are all potentially vulnerable if we happen to fall pregnant or contract an illness at any point in life not knowing our system is low.
You've had CP before. You had no reason to suspect you needed to be careful about it. Those around you had no reason to keep you away from illness and yet it turns out, through no fault of your own, your immunity to it hadn't stuck or hadn't lasted. That is not uncommon and is another reason why people with CP must be careful around all pregnant women and not fall into a trap of thinking that there is a rare group of ‘vulnerable people’ to avoid. So many people in everyday life are vulnerable to infection and you'd never know it by looking. Some of them won’t know themselves that they’re vulnerable.

And that's why it is not O.K to pop to the shops with a child with known CP.

The rest of society is responsible for 1 week in every lifetime for not going out and spreading CP needlessly to others. Its not too much to ask when the consequences are so awful.

goboboo Mon 21-Jan-13 21:44:14

Well said SharpyAll, I have to say you took the words out of my mouth. As this was my first time posting I was trying to be nice but I wish I had said it more like you.

StoicButStressed Mon 21-Jan-13 21:20:11

Hear Hear SharpyAll - powerfully and well said. Sending you and your son all hope possible, cannot BEGIN to imagine that nightmare and can get why you couldn't believe what you were reading. If honest (& this is clearly nada compared to what you are dealing with), I am still steaming at someone telling me I was 'highly irresponsible' to have had the nightmare of contracting CP in pregnancy with both my life and my DS's at risk as a result - like I made a choice?? Agree with every word you have written and can only hope those who REALLY need to read it and get it DO bloody well do so.

sharpyall Mon 21-Jan-13 20:01:00

i cant believe what i am reading. anyone with a tiny bit of common sense knows not to take there child out if they have cp or any other contagious illness. i have 4 children and 1 is currently fighting for his life as he has cancer. how the hell would you like it living in my shoes, waking up every day wondering if some stupid mother fucker has took there child to the shop KNOWING they have cp running the risk of my son getting it, ending up in hospital or even worse DEAD. no other way of putting it. try watching your child getting pumped full of poisen to keep them alive, try watching them be in so much pain they have to go on morphine, try waking up wondering if today is the day your son has relapsed, try staying in the hospital for days on end not knowing when you will go home, not knowing when you will see your other children all because you couldnt stay at home.
what is wrong with staying in and looking after your ill child for a few days and not going out. NOTHING. it could safe a life. could you imagine having to take your child to the hospital and have a massive neddle shoved in there leg while they cry, then them reacting to it. ooh shit no you wont have to imagine or think about it as it hopefully will never happen to you.
before you take your kids out wether they are under a raincover or not, if they are ill and contagious keep them home.
as for keeping our cancer kids home, why should we,they have chemo for more then 3yrs some of them, they have had there childhood destroyed and the only bit of normailty is school, we try to give them a much of as normal life as possible, thank god the schools and parents at school are good cos if we had you lot there they would never go to school or be in hospital.
Just try walking in the shoes of a mum with a child with cancer or other serious illneses.
as for snowybrr i think you need to get a grip and live in the real world, you have made some very unsensitive comments which are bang out of order
everyone of us has our own views but when you put another childs life at risk because you are bored or cant be arsed to try and figure out a solution you are not worth listening to. for those who didn know about the risks you could be causing then fine, make changes now, for those who wont change and wont listen, i hope you can live with yourself knowing what your recklesness has caused.

redspottydress Mon 21-Jan-13 19:46:49

There are some very sad and scary stories on here. I appreciate what a pp said on here about cp vaccine not being tested for long term effects, but that is true of all relatively new vaccines, they are only tested for as long ago as the first cohort had them. I also appreciate what another poster said about the economical model. I do not understand why the government are talking about bringing in rotavirus vaccine at significant cost when there have been no fatalities caused by this disease and no dangers to pregnant women. Why vaccination against rubella and no cp, even if it was only girls? I would worry greatly if my dc had been spreading about cp before the spots came out. It does sound like it is not a risk that we should be taking.

UrticaDioica Mon 21-Jan-13 19:08:56

And perhaps time would be better spent chasing said tail. X

labtest Mon 21-Jan-13 16:12:46

In other words snowy, if enough people tell you you have a tail maybe it's time to look behind you.

StoicButStressed Mon 21-Jan-13 15:55:56

Snowybrrr -

'Also I think you were highly irresponsible to embark on a pregnancy unvaccinated , and knowing you hadn't had CP.'

No. It was not your 'opinion', you - wholly inaccurately (& pretty bloody offensively & very stupidly as how on earth would or could you know this TO state it as a given) - stated I was 'highly irresponsible' etc etc. One of the 'etc's' being you asserting as fact the 'knowing you hadn't had CP'. Which, presuming you've read post correctly, you will know is an utter fallacy. I had HAD CP hon. For you to 'state' otherwise is not an opinion, it is a moronic assumption. Would suggest you maybe read through ALL the posts on here and then maybe sit back & re-evaluate your attitude. One person thinking you're being OOO is a view; TWO people thinking it is more than coincidence; THREE people (& it's actually more if you read through all) would strongly suggest the issue sits with you.

And again on a very personal level, I cannot imagine making 2 direct replies (as you did to mine) to a post that includes the fact that poster has a parent very rapidly dying but in the HIDEOUS position of NOT being able to see them as that limited time ticks away. Whether I agreed or disagreed on whatever view your/anyone else's post on any given subject was, plain decency and empathy (qualities that are pretty much everywhere on MN) would have ensured that alongside my 'view', I would also offer sympathy/empathy/good wishes/whatever regarding any other tough situation mentioned within it (& no, before you start, that is NOT why I posted - am just pointing out that along with having enough people on here commenting specifically on your tone/attitude/callousness; that too tells me something about you.

Goodbye.

snowybrrr Mon 21-Jan-13 15:34:05

'Also I think you were highly irresponsible to embark on a pregnancy unvaccinated , and knowing you hadn't had CP.'

that is my opinion .Just because you don't like it, just because you don't agree, does not make it troll like.I am entitled to my opinion the same as you are entitled to yours.
secondly how can the GP possibly know who you got CP from.From the date of onset he can determine a window of time (of several days duration) during which you were infected but that is all.

StoicButStressed Mon 21-Jan-13 15:07:11

Also I think you were highly irresponsible to embark on a pregnancy unvaccinated , and knowing you hadn't had CP.

Dear Snowybrrr (feels like quite an apposite username if honest). TiggyTape is 100% correct in pointing out how deeply unfair/wrong that statement is. And it was clearly directed at me as was your 2nd immed reply to my post, ergo I will reply directly... FYI, I had HAD chickenpox when a child - but that did NOT stop me catching it again.

Secondly, I am not/was not looking for someone 'to blame' - the simple reality is I KNOW (& GP confirmed) how/when got it. I knew CP (& other bugs) around and delib was not going into nursery or anywhere confined etc. I waited across the street and Nursery Teacher would bring DS to me. On one, very clear occasion, whilst waiting safely away, said Mother stopped and parked buggy by me only to then go on a whine about the PITA of looking after her sick kid. Who by then I had - through NO fault of own - been next to for 5 minutes. GP confirmed via the very precise time-line/incubation period. So, not looking for someone 'to blame', merely pointing out the consequences of seriously irresponsible parental behaviour.

Libel - hon, my straw man reference WASN'T to the very valid and real fact that peeps contagious before know; it was solely in direct response to those who appeared unable to distinguish between innocently being out with an infected but NOT YET SHOWING CP kid vs. KNOWINGLY exposing others (whether pregnant women; cancer fighters; HIV carriers etc etc, or just plain darned healthy people who may not yet have had CP) to it. Meant no offence and apologise if caused any.

Lastly, for very first time, have reported a poster to MNHQ for trolling and abusive (vs. expressing own maybe very different views like the rest of us have, but without attacking people). Can debate without insulting, or ferociously inaccurate and deeply offensive comments such as that quoted at top of this.

Can I also wish EVERYONE who has a child fighting cancer all the very best; cannot imagine anything worse sad but your spirits and strength resonate.

labtest Mon 21-Jan-13 14:36:18

Excellent post goboboo

twojumpingbeans Mon 21-Jan-13 14:29:27

YABVVU. I totally agree with the previous poster, my DD2 has a genetic condition where she could get incredibly poorly with chicken pox. The onus shouldn't be on me to keep her away from the world. I expect others to keep away from us when they are poorly. Two weeks at home is nothing to endure compared to those of us with life limited children. Stay indoors and keep your germs to yourself.

goboboo Mon 21-Jan-13 14:24:26

I have never posted here before but felt I needed to on this thread. It is not aimed at those of you who are just trying to understand or learn, or at those who pop to the shop etc and leave the kids in the car. But to those who think that it is the immunosuppressed people who should be isolated to protect themselves. We will never completely stop the spread of Chickenpox but it is so important to limit it as best we can, and to understand the repercussions of this virus to certain people and act accordingly. My little boy was diagnosed with Leukeamia at the age of 21 months old. He has an older brother and a younger sister. Before the age of 2, my son had lost his hair, lost the ability to walk, lost the use of his eyelids which meant he couldn't open his eyes and gone through many rounds of Chemo both iv and into his spine. It was at this point that we were told to take him home and try and live as normal a life as possible. A few months later the treatment had caused his mouth to be so sore that he couldn't eat, he lost so much weight he had to have a tube put up his nose and into his stomache. He couldn't tolerate the feeds so was sick many times and had this tube re-inserted 4 times in as many days when it was decided to iv feed him instead. This in itself carries many risks. The treatment for a boy with this Leukeamia is over three years, and we are two years in. Now he has hair and plays and goes to Nursery and people wouldn't know to look at him that there is anything wrong, but there is. His immune system is virtually non existant. In the few months that he has been at nursery he has been exposed to CP 4 times, each time he has to have a very painful injection into the muscle in his leg. That is the good news. These are cases that could not be avoided, and the parents of these children have advised the school immediately so he could have this injection. I do not want to think about what could happen if people thought light of it and didn't advise me. Should I seriously encase my little boy in a bubble for over three years after what he has already been through. Should he know nothing but pain and treatment???????

ByTheWay1 Mon 21-Jan-13 14:22:06

It is spread by coughs and sneezes, so I think the OP is entirely reasonable taking them out with a raincover on - I had to take one of mine to the doctor's surgery and he recommended doing it this way - and when taking the little ones out of the pushchair, to make sure there was a scarf or muslin over their mouth/nose area...

libelulle Mon 21-Jan-13 14:19:09

Yes, those are good points Tiggy, but nevertheless it is interesting that they are suggesting that the 5-day exclusion period for spots suggested by the AAP may not actually make any difference to transmission rates. Schools and nurseries, and the presence or absence of poxy children within them, is a pretty big bone of contention on threads such as this.

tiggytape Mon 21-Jan-13 14:12:04

libelulle - but the research is limited to spread within an enclosed community where everyone has been simultaneously exposed both prior to and after spotty period. They have all been exposed to the same infected people at roughly the same time so new cases in the later stages are less. That doesn't mean the people with spots aren't capable of passing on the disease. It means the people who were contagious but without spots beat them to it.
A school community is the same people exposed to the same people over and over everyday and getting infected from the earliest ones to be contagious. That doesn't mean those in the later stages of the illness aren't contagious.

We are talking about something different. Community exposure is in dribs and drabs. We don't see the same people daily. The woman on the bus who szeezes all over you may be slightly less contagious on day 5 when half of her spots are crusty but that doesn't mean she is safe to be out. And it is cold comfort to know she was more contagious on day 1 than she is now, because on day 1 she wasn't sneezing all over you on the bus!

tiggytape Mon 21-Jan-13 14:02:11

Children are as infectious 2 days before spots appear as they are when they are spotty.
Some children suffer flu-like symptoms in those 2 days so are kept off school anyway.
Some literally break out in spots with no obvious build up at all. That last category are the riskiest to others (but only for 2 days before they are isolated). The children who are very ill with no spots yet or actively spotty are all being kept at home and this minimises the risk as far as possible for vulnerable people.

Urtica - that video is amazing and produced by a GCSE student - very though provoking and very moving. When you see what those children go through to get better, how can anybody question the advice to stay away from others when contagious for just a few short days in a whole lifetime?

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