Feminism and theory.

[almondcakes]

I am starting this thread because various people who use the feminists boards use different theories. So there are feminists who are interested in Marxism, Radical feminism, class analysis, Post Structuralism and many other theories.

As this was taking up space on a chat thread about MN and transphobia, it was asked if theories could become a new thread.

And there is a mistake in my OP. Another good reason why I don't usually start threads...

Well, let's start out positive and not worry too much about mistakes.

I am mostly marking my place here.

I will introduce myself by saying that I am a straw environmentalist with anarcho syndicalist leanings.

As I know nothing about the various feminist theories other than what I read here and elsewhere this is a shameless place mark. :o

Garlic said on the other thread

"I've always thought it's surprisingly easy for women, in particular, to grasp because our lives are full of deconstruction, reconstruction, adding and removing layers and suchlike. "

I feel as if my whole life sometimes is a balance between apparently radically different narratives which each hold a form of truth which is acceptable in certain circumstances. My whole self is an attempt to integrate them but I am always under pressure to leave parts out - various parts in various contexts.

(The Golden Notebook is about this, I suddenly remember)

My background to this is

• being brought up Catholic, never literally believing it, never being able to admit this aloud for fear of punishment, but recognising a valuable language of our spiritual selves in it, recognising and grabbing onto a notion of the human as being capable of salvation and more than a material or economic entity

• being brought up female in the knowledge that my inner self did not conform to gender stereotypes

• becoming pretty in adolescence and realising I could perform "desirable young woman" successfully and what a double edged sword this was

• at the same time as becoming aware that this had nothing to do with expressing my own sexual self

• knowing that in group brainstorms where "no idea is a bad idea!" etc, this doesn't apply to women who have to be careful with the self censorship to be acceptable, but pretend to be all relaxed and out there or you are uptight and fucking with the group dynamic

• knowing you can never put your interior monologue out there, knowing that you always have to pretend to see about 45% of what you do see

[loads and loads of examples]

• as an adult, being passionately attached to and loyal to my family at the same time as loathing the fact that I am viewed as an instrument of service to them

• loving my DP at the same time as being furious with his unconscious sexism, and being absolutely clear about this at the same as unable to express it

• knowing that on some level he loves me though as what?

I know this is all on such a noddy level compared to proper epistemology but I wanted to flesh out why that really struck a chord with me from Garlic

In particular I think that notions of ethics and justice as so demonstrably weak and arguably bankrupt when applied in the real world to women that even if we nod along to them, we know they don't work for us in the way that they say they do and we pretend they do (I think this may be something that applies to all oppressed groups )

Just marking place - not sure I understand the discussion so far but have learnt so much on FWR and this looks like another place for some education!

I am hopeless about this. For me it was just a case of noticing that my life and lives of everyone else were being constrained by our respective genders (being forced to perform, if you want to take Judith Butler seriously). And it seemed as if the obvious remedy would be to back off and let everyone find their own path through life. But then again, following tradition can be a comfort that most of us won't give up entirely, so there's always going to be a tension there.

When these theories fail to match what we see in daily life, I think they're just artificial creations by people with time on their hands. It's a mismatch between the theoretical and the intensely practical.

I find theory sometimes useful for articulating what I feel. I don't know much, but so far it's all very enlightening and interesting and real.

At the moment for me one of the hardest things I'm trying to reconcile is my potentially quite socialist leanings and my very prominent feminist feelings.

For example on the other thread childcare was mentioned. One of my responses is that women's unpaid childcare work isn't valued within the GDP figures if it was taken into account then I think it would be more valued because we value money so much. If it was valued I think women would be more highly revered as they actually make massive contributions to the economy.

I can't remember the excite figures but for example in Australia if the work involved in breastfeeding was added to the GDP it would make a significant larger contribution then Telstra our largest telco.
But I think that is a more socialist view because it puts money matters or at least production matters as the solution rather then an end to the patriarchy.

Is "Third wave feminism" a theory?
I thought I agreed with it, but then it contains some strong assertions about porn/stripping/plastic surgury etc being 'empowering' and then I get really spun out and can't decide what I agree with... Myley Cyrus etc...

I can't help but think we are going backwards though, everything was going so well, and then this hyper-sexualisation of girls and women happened and men got more demanding to look at our bodies, and women got more demanding that men look at their bodies... And how did this happen? And how do these women live next door to women who cover head-to-toe in the hijab which is a whole other subject, or is it?

I am very interested in feminism, have read numerous books, But the more questions that are answered within feminism, more are raised...

One thing I believe is that feminism overall aims to improve not exclusively the rights of women but also the balance of power in all society, to benefit men and women.

For example if paternity leave was considered as significant as maternity leave to employers, no men or women would complain, and if women and men shared all the same level of responsibilities inside and outside of the domestic sphere, everyone wins. Im sure the present day women at home with the kids man at work all day long is not the utopian ideal for either sex, and leads undoubtedly to a resentment that runs through much of society.

A harmonious society would be one where men were socialised to spend time rearing the children as much as women, and women were socialised to pursue a career with support at home as much as men. The genderisation of the sexes would be insignificant. The notion of the female brain vs male brain would be finally eradicated.

I agree in a feminism has these sorts of aims, and that we sort of are getting there apart from some set-backs ?

See I'm not sure that the socialization to spend the same amount of time rearing children is a great thing. I'm not saying that women have to stay at home but actually there is some biological things that women do that men can't. I'd like things like breastfeeding and pregnancy were more respected for there contribution to society. that may include more men being stay home dad but equally it could include things like on site childcare as standard, or seeing "child rearing gaps" in a CV as a potential benefit rather then a negative when employing women.

We can argue about politics, but when we're talking about breastfeeding, nobody can deny that "The people own the means of production".

Yes! I just wish it was acknowledge at a wider level that it is means of production and that is hugely beneficial to society because i think not doing so actual undermines women. I say this knowing full well it is not the be all and end of mothering.

And my feeling is I;m not sure I want it just recognized as monetary value because I would like to see our society step away from the neoliberal capitalist shit it has going on. I just can't work out if I think over throwing capitalism is more important then overthrowing the patriarchy or if they are both equally important and one requires the other.

HAzChem, the whole of this film used to be online, but I can now only find a 20 min extract. I still think it is worth watching. It is in English:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=GmwA8f-Kzgo

rudely marking place - i have been avidly lurking on the transphobia threads

i really just want to absorb the thoughts and discussion of people with much better clarity of thought than me!

i fall (i think) into the "young" feminist category, in that i'm 28 so benefit from the truly epic work of feminists who have come before. and quite a few of my peers in RL declare themselves feminists but can't align myself with many of their views which tend towards "choice feminism" if that means what i want it to mean

Blatant place mark too. Haven't time to read all the posts just now.

I describe myself mostly on here as a radical feminist for ease but I'm not really. I agree with radical feminist analysis but I don't think I can honestly call myself a radical feminist because I bow a bit too much to patriarchy in my personal life (married and stuff like that).

For the purpose of the thread though I am a radical feminist and I think Marx and Mill did some jolly good analysis too but I'm not a Marxist feminist and I don't think Millsian feminist exists as a category!

H

H

Sorry, the perils of posting from a phone!

Hazchem, I would like us to move towards a Scandinavian model, but even there probably due to pregnancy and breastfeeding, women do most childcare.

What would even things up would be if we moved to thecultural expectation that men were the ones who should take career breaks and time off to care for elderly and sick older people.

almondcakes That video is about a women who is source material for the book "The politics of Breastfeeding" which hugely has influenced my understanding of economics and women's place,and potential place in society.

While I do love the field I have chosen I do wonder if i really should be reading economics as it just seams so influential and a place where really structural changes might be possible while I'll be left mucking around in micro.

The point about men being more responsible for later care is interesting. I know in my own relationship if things go to plan I will likely be more active within my work while the children are in their teens and 20s potentially to the point (depending which way I go) that I'll be a fly in fly out parent.

I guess the mothering/parenting thing actually helps crystallize why I think feminism rather then equalism is important because I'm not looking to be the same as men but rather have a society based more on social justice rather then equal access.

Hazchem looking solely at my own family, my mother's career has taken off since her children reached their later teens. My father's health hasn't been great so he has scaled back his work (this was a coincidence - my mother didn't step up her work in response, she had already done thy anyway). They still have my younger (male) siblings at home some of the time, and my father and brothers have essentially been forced into taking charge of things at home, because mum simply isn't available.

(It is noticeable, however, that when I come and visit and mum is out of the house, I become "default female" and am deferred to for all housekeeping arrangements until I make it clear that I am not responsible)

Anyway, I was thinking about this in the context of Hillary Clinton, whose (if she does go for it again and is successful) presidential term would be over 20 years later than her husband's though they are the same age.

Sorry, I know this is off-topic for the thread

Is "Third wave feminism" a theory?

It's probably more accurate to talk about "feminisms" (in the plural). The use of the term 'wave' is about historical points of concentrated activism and change: the suffragettes, the 1970s women's liberation movements, and now "post-feminism". But I'd add the mid to late 19th century liberal feminism of Harriet Taylor & J S Mill, Millicent Garret Fawcett, Frances Power Cobbe and so on.

Or you could just say: "There's always been a women's movement."