Feminism versus egalitarianism?

[EldritchCleavage]

Universities David Willetts has suggested here that working class men have lost out because feminism enabled middle class women to take educational and working opportunities that the men would otherwise have got. He appears (trying to see past the Daily Hate Mail spin to what he actually said) to see this as an unfortunate effect of feminism, rather than a pernicious effect of our class system. Thoughts?

[EldritchCleavage]

Oh sorry, Universities minister David Willetts.

[gorionine]

I am not sure do understand. Does he mean that because women are now getting bwetter education and better jobs it somehow "forces" men to take whatever is left. Does he really think that women are emplyed for the fact they are women rather than the fact they appear more competent for the job offered? Maybe men could take steps to "regain" competence without having to blame women for it?

[EldritchCleavage]

Exactly, dittany.
If the playing field were level, women (of whatever class) and working class men could both have advanced in terms of access to opportunities. Of course, in this country it isn't, and men from certain social and educational backgrounds unfairly dominate.

It doesn't occur to people like David Willetts-or they won't admit-that for all people outside this narrow group to advance, the narrow group must give up its privileges and compete fairly. Instead, special interest groups are pitted against one another for the few opportunities available. This enables one to suggest that middle-class women deprive the working classes of opportunity, rather than upper class men.

Is that blindness, or Machiavellian cleverness? I can't decide.

[SardineQueen]

I like this comment best!

"Today women are too interested in trying to be men. They pretend to be busy doing "important" work, "facilitating "or such nonsense INSTEAD of bringing up their children properly. They ship them (children) out to sausage factory daycare (Susan George anyone?) and the children turn out to be foul mouth illiterates with facial jewellery and multicoloured hair, pregnant at fourteen. One woman is worth a thousand men to society, but no! Today we devalue women by allowing them to pretend to be men. Most (all?) women that I come accross in my working life are out of their depth and not very competent at the work that they pretend to do. Feminism will set women back. When TRUE equality (COMPETITION) arrives competitive competent men will trample women back to the dark ages because men are always on "home" ground and women are always playing "away""

[SardineQueen]

Mind you this one is very good too:

"Harriet Harman once again making a complete mess of things!"

When she is not mentioned once in the article

[EldritchCleavage]

Presumably his argument runs, "Well, wewould have had a working class man in the Cabinet, but then we opted for Theresa May instead." It's her fault.

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

Colleague: "Is it an April Fool?"

Me: "I don't think so"

Yes - they hate us.

[Portofino]

I guess it quite correct to say that a having higher proportion of women in the workplace - particularly in professional and managerial posts WILL have an effect on the number of men doing the same. That is common sense surely. There is only a finite number of positions. So an "unfortunate" side effect of feminism - well that is one way of putting it... Unfortunate for whom?

The world has changed entirely. My dad wasn't especially educated but started as an apprentice and worked his way up to the Board. I can't imagine that will be nearly so common now. Isn't that more to do with education policy over the last 20 years though, rather than simply feminism (though I realise the 2 things are entwined)? There are few apprenticeships anymore.

The focus is on academic achievement for everyone, even though there are huge swathes of kids for whom this is not realistic, ones who would be better off learning a trade and working their way up doing something they are good at and enjoy.

[TondelayoSchwarzkopf]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha [hollow laughter]

So the lost opportunities for working class men have absolutely nothing to do with the Thatcher years and the annihilation of manufacturing & mining industries in this country.

[TondelayoSchwarzkopf]

What has poor Susan George done btw? (the blonde sexy actress from the 1970s)

Ah Vanessa George

[TondelayoSchwarzkopf]

Also what about working class women and their opportunities. Where do they fit in?

Christ I hate this fucking government.

[Portofino]

They are meant to be kept quiet busy having babies who will support us all in our old age cos the pensions are fucked init!

[TondelayoSchwarzkopf]

Ah I see. That's why working class women who have children are so revered by Tories.

[Unrulysun]

Have to say that IME apprenticeship arguments look good on paper but IRL are really just ways of keeping working class kids in blue collar work.

I am choosing to think that this is an April Fool. I have been hoping that the same is going to turn out to be true of Michael Gove and George Osborne.

[AyeRobot]

Working class women come in for a special kind of scapegoating when they have children, especially if the father has fucked off.

Willetts' views are not uncommon at all. I'd love to ask him if educated women who then SAH when their children are young are "wasting" their education, training and job opportunity and those things would be better going to men in the first place, because that's where that conversation usually heads.

[snowmama]

This has got to be a fucking April fools....that a universities minister would say this, is so is so many layers of stupid, it is difficult to know where to begin.

[EldritchCleavage]

Not really, snowmama, because after all, women ARE responsible for everything bad that happens in the world, always.

[GeekCool]

I'm not a middle class woman ( I don't think, never figured out the class rules as such), yet I work full time. So have I helped widen this gap or not?

[GeekCool]

Oh and if we are looking at comments, I thought this one was a peach:

Education has been dumbed down to accomodate the less intellectually able.It is a demonstrable fact that men are,on average,more intelligent than women.Aspects of feminism have provided equal opportunity for women,which is excellent but it is now time to stop tinkering with nature before our civilisation rots from within and is attacked by stronger masculine forces from outside.This society is over feminised and incompetent,unprepared for defending itself and it is vulnerable.

[EldritchCleavage]

"Stronger masculine forces from outside"? Ooooh! My curiosity is piqued now. Who might they be?

[MrIC]

I'm not usually in favour of eugenics, but does anyone else think that poisoning the pages of the Daily Mail a la "The Name of the Rose" would do wonders for society as a whole?

or maybe we should just all decamp to the Daily Mail comments pages en masse, carry on as normal, and see whose blood pressure gives in first