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📚 'Rather Dated' October: Dorothy Whipple's 'High Wages' 📚

24 replies

MotherofPearl · 01/10/2023 15:05

Usual opener to follow. I'm hopeless at copying it all over at once!

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MotherofPearl · 01/10/2023 15:07

Welcome to the Mumsnet 'Rather Dated' book club. This month we are reading and discussing Dorothy Whipple's 'High Wages.' Please do add your thoughts when you are ready.

About the threads:

We are reading and discussing fiction from the 1930s to the 1990s that would have been described as 'contemporary' in its day. We are reading one book a month. Spoilers are permitted!

We started the chat thanks to a thread where we kicked off with a discussion of Penelope Lively, The Road to Lichfield.

Currently we have these separate threads:
November: Anita Brookner, A Start in Life
December: Margaret Drabble: A Summer Bird-Cage
January: Elizabeth Jane Howard, The Beautiful Visit.
March: Winifred Watson, Miss Pettigrew Lives for a Day.
April: R.C. Sheriff, The Fortnight in September.
May: Elizabeth Taylor, Mrs Palfrey at the Claremont.
June: Margaret Kennedy, The Feast.
July: Mollie Panter-Downes, One Fine Day.
August: Elizabeth Von Arnim, The Enchanted April.
September: Barbara Pym, An Academic Question.

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MotherofPearl · 01/10/2023 15:09

Link to the main thread:

📚The Mumsnet 'Rather Dated' Book Group - All welcome to join📚 http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/whatweree_reading/4624300-the-mumsnet-rather-dated-book-group-all-welcome-to-join

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MotherofPearl · 01/10/2023 15:17

I really loved High Wages, but then I'm an ardent Whipple fan. She really knows how to sweep you along and engage you in the story.

I especially enjoyed the social history that we can observe in the novel: women's changing clothes and shopping habits, the impact of WWI, the decline of manufacturing and the rise of consumerism. I also found myself mesmerised by the story of Jane and her relationships with Wilfred and Noel. I was sort of hoping that Whipple would allow Jane and Noel to end up together, but I know that she's nothing if not a moral writer (not didactic, but her stories usually see the triumph of goodness over evil) and so I wasn't surprised that things didn't work out that way.

I wondered if anyone else was reminded of 'The Fortnight in September' in the part of the book where Jane and Mrs Briggs go to Blackpool for the weekend? The description of the boarding house and the seaside all took me back to Sheriff's Bognor!

Looking forward to reading what everyone else thought.

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olderbutwiser · 01/10/2023 15:21

Placemarking!

Terpsichore · 01/10/2023 15:39

I’m just dashing out but will be back with thoughts later.

I couldn’t work out whether I’d imagined it but when I checked back, I realised I hadn’t - we’ve already done one Whipple this year, haven’t we? - Someone at a Distance.

FuzzyCaoraDhubh · 01/10/2023 16:00

Thank you for atarting up this thread MotherofPearl! I also loved High Wages.
It was as good as Someone at a Distance. It was another well-written, engaging story and one I would read again.

I thought it was clever how Whipple focused on a few characters. It was easy for the reader to get to know them, understand how they ticked and then see how their lives changed when war broke out and how everything was turned upside-down.

I thought that Jane was a very resilient and independent person. I don't like the description 'a thoroughly modern woman', but if you are going to apply it to anyone, I think she fits it. I'm glad she didn't end up with Noel. I think he wasn't worthy of her. He came across as being quite vacuous and lacking substance. It also occurred to me how hard the girls had to work. Working conditions were tough and they had a nice job, especially compared to workers in the mill.

I felt sorry for Jane seeking solace in the meditations of Marcus Aurelius, but it made me smile as well as I think Whipple wrote it in a humorous way (or was that the way I read it?) I found a paperback of the meditations on my shelf during the summer but I haven't got past chapter one. Maybe that's why I think it's funny.

Anyway! I did really like this book. I think Whipple is a very skilful story-teller. I also loved Jane and Mrs Briggs's trip to Blackpool and it did remind me of 'A Fortnight in September'. It was wonderful. More wonderful Whipple please.

highlandcoo · 01/10/2023 19:38

What a great book; I really enjoyed it. Probably more than Greenbanks which is the only other DW I've read.

While reading, I was thinking how much it reminded me of Arnold Bennett's The Old Wives' Tale .. and then it was mentioned as the book Jane was reading! Maybe as a tribute to AB?

I enjoyed the small town setting , where everyone knows one another's business, with characters like Mrs Greenwood, a big fish in a small pond who reminded me of Mrs Proudie in Barchester Towers. In fact all the characters were well-rounded and often entertaining. The three-sided friendship between Wilfrid, Jane and Noel, where they each found the intelligent company they craved, was really well portrayed. And Maggie's trusting - but not very insightful - love for Wilfrid becomes poignant after the relationship ends.

DW shows the double standards applied then to men and women. The incident at the ball is judged to be totally Jane's fault and the injustice of that is pretty clear to the reader. The way Jane sticks up for herself is admirable - and it's amusing when she plays Mr Chadwick at his own game and outwits him too.

I also found the exploration of the evolution of ready-made clothes very interesting. My grandparents were both tailors and at the start of their careers, in the twenties and thirties, and into the fifties too, would measure and make suits from scratch for their customers. This was in a small mining town in Scotland, not a city with wealthy clients.
I remember visiting my grandpa in his workshop at the back of the house, where he sat cross-legged on a bench. He had goose irons heating in a coal stove and he'd take them out with tongs and plunge them into a bucket of cold water whereupon the steam hissed up dramatically .. very exciting! He used an old treadle sewing machine too - no electricity needed.
Of course, with the arrival of mass-produced clothing, their livelihood dwindled, my grandpa finally retired in his eighties and my uncle, who'd followed them into the business, eventually had to give up and find work elsewhere.

I'm old enough to remember, as a young child, traditional drapers' shops with glass counters and small wooden drawers all the way up the walls, labelled "white knee socks", "woollen vests" etc. You would wait your turn, and the assistant would lay items out to be examined and discussed. This book took me right back there.

So I very much enjoyed Jane's enthusiasm for her work and the innovations she fought hard to introduce to Chadwicks; and especially the excitement of setting up her own business. It was frustrating that because of Noel, all that energy and entrepreneurship was going to be wasted. I did find the last few pages and the agonising ending of Jane and Noel's relationship a touch overdramatic. Otherwise I thought it was excellent.

And what do we think was going to happen between Jane and Wilfrid at the end?? She wasn't going to settle was she ..

Terpsichore · 01/10/2023 20:39

@highlandcoo I had a Saturday job in one of those very shops! It was like a time-warp and was owned by a total eccentric who'd kept all the shop-fittings and still sold things like stiffeners for corsets, stocking suspenders and those cobwebby hairnets with tiny beads on them…along with a million 'notions' of all kinds.She also had another shop that sold fabric and I alternated at that too. In case anyone wonders, this was in the 1980s, not the 1880s…!

That was one of the reasons I enjoyed this book so much: it felt utterly authentic. As a side-note, I also come from Lancashire, and I recognise the characters and speech-patterns of Maggie, Lily and Mrs Briggs so well. She got those spot-on, and it was a very affectionate portrayal, full of humour and sympathy. But she’d also done her research well about the trips to London Jane made. Great Portland St was indeed the centre of the rag trade and when I worked round there many years ago - when there were still going concerns; they’re pretty much all gone now - you could find bags full of discarded remnants of material out on the pavement every evening which were great for snaffling and taking home!

I think Whipple had a genius for stories that pull you in. This would have made a great film, which I'm sure we said about Someone at a Distance too. Afaik only two of her novels were filmed - They Were Sisters and They Knew Mr Knight - but any of them could have been, really.

I do agree that the doomed affair with Noel was the novel's weakest part, and descended into cliché at points. But there had to be a dramatic arc somewhere and I guess a thwarted love was the most logical way to do it.

FuzzyCaoraDhubh · 01/10/2023 21:12

I think Jane and Wilfred had the basis for a good relationship by the end of the book, whatever was going to happen next. I hoped she was going to start over though and open another shop. I had the same thought that it would have made a good film.

Your accounts of the family business and part-time job are fascinating, highlandcoco and Terpsichore. Thanks for sharing that. I remember my paternal grandmother using the word 'frock' for 'dress'. She would often tell me that she liked the frock I was wearing. It really brought back memories of her.

StellaOlivetti · 02/10/2023 09:48

Such an interesting discussion thus far! Thank you for sharing those memories @Terpsichore and @highlandcoo. I loved the book, and I too am now a fervent Dorothy lover. I still can’t believe I had never heard of her. I would like to place on record my enormous gratitude to whoever it was suggested her for our Rather Dated club; I am reading my way through the canon with very great pleasure, so thank you. High Wages was a real treat. Very easily pictured in the mind, would make a wonderful BBC Sunday teatime serial of the type they no longer make. Yes, I too thought of Arnold Bennett (I know he’s the Midlands) and also the clever characterisation reminded me of Dickens, a bit, though this was better and not caricatured. Fascinating insights into the world changing through fashion (my mum still says frock) and also the small amounts of sometimes grim sounding food after work, margarine shaved as small as possible by awful Mrs Chadwick. The minor characters were developed enough but did not dominate: Lily and her alcoholic Bob; I’m afraid I didn’t believe he would stay off the wagon, the Chadwicks, Sylvia’s snobby mother. Mrs Briggs perhaps less convincing, although I did believe that someone could be cut off from her roots by money and not be happy. DW is good at unhappy marriage isn’t she? Sylvia and Noel were painful to read about. Perhaps because the “shopgirl” book became a bit of a minor genre, I felt there was a bit of a fairy tale element to the structure, although DW cleverly subverted it by having Noel out of reach. The other prince candidate was Wilfred, but I think he was too damaged for Jane. A brilliant read.

highlandcoo · 16/10/2023 13:13

A bit late, but just to add to the conversation ..

@Terpsichore what a fantastic Saturday job! Mine was as a waitress in a rather tatty hotel - good fun but your job sounds much more unusual and memorable.

I wish we still had those old shops. When I was young, every town (in Scotland at least) had its own wool shop and we used to spend ages leafing through the patterns and choosing wool ( I learned to knit at four; there wasn't much to do in a small Scottish town!)

There was always an assistant who was an absolute expert too.

Terpsichore · 16/10/2023 18:33

Ah, it was an education in itself @highlandcoo! The owner was a complete one-off. She’d owned her shops for decades and they were, to put it politely, unusual. The other staff were all called 'the girls' and had also worked there for decades, so were well, well past retirement age but still going strong. They knew everything there was to know about fabric, wool, haberdashery, notions, anything to do with sewing or handicrafts. I could whip out yards of fabric (we didn’t hold with meters), measure it on the metal strip on the edge of the wooden counter, and have it cut and neatly folded in two shakes of a lamb's tail 😂

(Later I had another Saturday/holiday job in a cake shop and I could tell you some stories about that too!)

TheGander · 16/10/2023 22:11

Just coming in to say a big thank you for introducing me to Dorothy Whipple through the rather dated thread ( it was Someone at a Distance). Like Stella Olivetti I’m a card carrying Whippler now and chase her books around London libraries. Read High Wages a few months ago. It’s the immersion into past worlds which are still close enough to be relatable, but mercifully free of the postmodern clutter that I feel pollutes contemporary existence , that I find so enjoyable. Not to mention the escape from the beastliness of current events. It’s notable that her books are often written or set during/ just after war. But the horrors are alluded to rather than graphically described. Some may criticise Whipple for that but I’m just grateful.

MotherofPearl · 16/10/2023 22:28

I like the idea of being a Whippler. I agree that her books are a wonderful refuge, but are in no way saccharine or sappy.

I've loved reading the descriptions of those old-fashioned haberdashery shops on this thread. The closet I remember of this type of thing is going with my mother (in the 70s and 80s) to shops that sold dress material and dress patterns. I remember sitting with her while she leafed through those enormous Butterick or Vogue pattern books. She'd then ask for the pattern and choose her fabric, which they always ripped from the roll with a very quick, distinctive shearing noise. I suppose you can only do this with cotton, not other fabrics. Then she'd select any buttons or zips. The buttons came in plastic tubes with a sample button stuck on the outside of the lid to show what was inside. I must admit I often found it quite boring at the time, and probably complained bitterly, but in retrospect it seems like a lovely world.

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IsadoraQuagmire · 16/10/2023 22:47

I'm definitely a Whippler, have read High Wages so many times since I was about 12, as well as any of her others I could get my hands on.

MotherofPearl · 16/10/2023 22:49

Closet should be closest in my post Blush

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Terpsichore · 17/10/2023 08:15

@TheGander I agree, she’s very good at portraying the silent horror behind the civilised facade - but there are lots of horrors. Have you read They Were Sisters? To my mind that’s one of the most genuinely chilling and psychologically true portraits of a horribly abusive marriage in fiction, and written in 1943.

FuzzyCaoraDhubh · 17/10/2023 08:39

I'm definitely going to read more Whipple. I'm a closet Whipple fan.

I've discovered that I can borrow 'rather dated' books from other libraries. Dublin has a good catalogue of these authors. I've asked for two, but they are in no rush to deliver them to my local branch.

StellaOlivetti · 17/10/2023 10:06

@Terpsichore I think it was you that recommended They Were Sisters to me, and I completely agree, it’s totally chilling. Sometimes I think that because a work is written by a woman, and an older woman at that, with a typically “older woman’s” name, there can be a tendency to pigeonhole it as cosy, especially if it’s domestically set. Whereas in fact, here for example, it can be a detailed study of damaged and unpleasant psychology. Agatha Christie suffers from the same thing. Some of her work deals with very dark human behaviour.

TheGander · 17/10/2023 11:23

I’ll be looking out for They Were Sisters. Currently reading They knew Mr Knight. Didn’t mean in any way to imply she’s saccharine. She excels at the detail and subtleties of human relations, hierarchies, social signifiers and silent betrayals- very British you could say but it’s done so well. Slightly reminds me of Jean Rhys in that way, but I warm more to DW.

MotherofPearl · 17/10/2023 11:41

@TheGander Oh gosh, I didn't think you'd implied DW is saccharine - just that I think this might be an assumption others might make about novels written by women that could be described as comforting or a respite from the modern world. She certainly looks at the dark sides of human nature fairly unflinchingly. Maybe the comforting thing - for me anyway - is that there's usually a moral core somewhere in her books, and by the end usually a sense that the moral order has been restored (though this doesn't always translate simply as a 'happy ending' for all the characters). They Knew Mr Knight is a good example of this.

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TheGander · 17/10/2023 15:26

I think we are on the same page @MotherofPearl ! She can look at the nasty side of life/ human nature but I agree with you, there is always a moral reckoning and I love how those who abuse their power and privilege are invariably brought down a few pegs at the end! I’m only at the beginning of They Knew Mr Knight, enjoying being in Whipple territory again 😊

Terpsichore · 17/10/2023 15:38

Yes, I wasn’t implying you were trying to make DW cosy either, @TheGander! but you’re right that wider world events tend not to intrude on her narratives. They’re there, and inform the social and domestic settings she uses, but she rarely uses them as hinges for her plots.

TheGander · 17/10/2023 17:43

Agreed @Terpsichore . Given the state of the world I appreciate that.

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