My dog-aggressive terrier mobbed by two pushy lab-crosses. How should I have reacted?

[AIBUqatada]

Sorry for length of post

I have a dog-aggressive PRT. He isn't savage by a long way, but in uncontrolled situations he is, if apprehensive, fairly likely to snap at other dogs. When he does get aggressive, his strategy is always the same: he wants to bite the other dog on the back of the neck. After doing this he is calm. He never approaches other dogs for a fight -- he just gets wary when they come close to him.

Clearly his aggression is my responsibility to prevent. So I work very hard on his behaviour around other dogs. This morning I saw two labrador type dogs coming towards us, so I recalled my dog. He had seen them coming and was quite close to them, but he recalled perfectly and I put him on the lead. I brought out his squeaky toy, which I use as a distractor/reward in the presence of other dogs. It works brilliantly. He adores it and will focus all his attention on it when dogs pass him.

Then I saw the two labs sprinting towards us, ignoring their owner. One of the labs is a regular feature on our walks. He isn't aggressive but he is very pushy and assertive, and huge (crossed with something much bigger than a lab). The other was an adolescent labradoodle.

As an emergency measure I gave my dog his ball, so that he had something to keep his mouth busy. I tried to keep my dog's lead slack, because he already felt cornered and I didn't want to worsen that. The huge lab made several very assertive approaches at my dog and was snarling. The labradoodle was culumphing about very close to my dog. My dog still had hold of the ball but he was reacting so I felt I did now have to haul him back. But big-dog kept on and on, and eventually my dog bit him on the back of the neck. Big dog backed off and my dog instantly relaxed.

At this point the owner caught up and put his dogs on lead. He was reasonable about the situation and didn't blame me but I still feel awful about it, especially since the owner in question was 18yo boy, not the father who usually walks these dogs.

I'm upset, fearing the lab might have been hurt (I don't think so -- I think he just got a hard pinch, no skin broken, fearing the father might be annoyed with me. I'm also really disappointed that after months of really successful training my dog has on this occasion learnt to believe that he does actually have to get aggressive to protect himself, despite all my persuasions to the contrary.

A question I have is this: When all else has failed and I am, despite best precautions, in a dog-on-dog situation, what is the best way to work with my dog? E.g. Should I have moved more quickly to the point where I pick him up? Was I wrong to attempt the slack-lead solution when it was obvious that there would be a close encounter?

[toboldlygo]

Picking him up puts you in prime position to get bitten - the loose dogs may well try and jump up to reach your dog, inadvertently biting or scratching you in the process, or your dog may accidentally bite you in an attempt to defend himself from the leaping dogs.

Your dog was on a lead, you made every effort to distract him and stay out of the path of the other dogs, the other dogs were not on a lead and not under their owner's control. You were in the right.

When I am in your situation and my poor dog-reactive dog (who is not aggressive, just terrified - he growls, he lunges but if the dog actually makes contact with him he hits the deck and screams :() is beset by a loose dog I usually resort to shouting, in my best authoritative shouty voice, "CALL YOUR DOG. NOW." If the owner isn't in sight I get between my dog and the loose one and shout at it to fuck the fuck off.

[AIBUqatada]

Thanks, tbg. Good point about the hazards of picking up your dog.

Yes, I think I should have shouted more and sooner. I did eventually yell GO AWAY in my best Barbara Woodhouse voice to the huge lab. But with hindsight I should have done that as soon as he approached.

[daisydotandgertie]

Honestly, and I know it isn't the usual advice on here, he just told the annoying dog to bugger off.

It is dog speak for I don't like the look of you and you're not listening to my face.

It isn't ideal, but IMO it's not something to panic about.

He is clearly not trying to attack the other dog. If he was, you and the other dog would really know about it. That makes it more of a grumpy old man 'leave me alone' message. Not an 'I hate you and want to fight you to the death' message.

Keep on doing as you are. It's working well and the more you do it, the better it will be. There will always, always be an occasion where a dog's instincts overcome it's training. The point of training is to push that point further and further away.

Oh, and picking him up will reinforce his behaviour, so a last minute resort. And the other 2 dogs weren't being agressive. They were trying to get yours to play.

[GrimmaTheNome]

I don't know what more you could have done with your dog - it sounds like you're doing everything right and its a shame you got derailed by a pair out of control.

The problem is the other dogs, perhaps you need to think how to manage them if their owner isn't doing a proper job of it.

We have a rather timid dachshund, DH tends to forcefully tell uncontrolled overexuberant large dogs to Go Away (waving hand or stick) before they get too close - by and large they do. Maybe you could carry a pocketful of treats to distract incomers?

[AIBUqatada]

Thanks daisy. I really agree that there is a difference between a "fuck-off" bite that leaves nothing more than a bruise, and serious out-and-out aggression. I worry that other people don't see it that way though! And of course a fuck-off bite can still sometimes do damage.

And that is a very good point about the object of training simply being to push the unwanted instinctual response further and further back, rather than hoping to eliminate it. Every apprehensive dog, however well trained, must have an eventual point at which it will bite, if the provocation is severe enough.

Yes, I accept that the other dogs weren't being aggressive, especially the calumphing labradoodle who was just joining in the jollity as he saw it. There was something very direct and seemingly unplayful about the bigger lab's behaviour, though. Not aggressive but ... I don't know enough dog psychology to think what, exactly. Harrassing, perhaps?

[AIBUqatada]

x-post grimma. A pocketful of treats! That is a good idea. I haven't met a lab yet that would turn down a quick snack.

[AIBUqatada]

I think my big mistake was not being firm with the other dogs right from the start. I am far too polite. I will work on that.

There is so much to think of in so short a time though. I have only just got to the point of being unfailingly quick-on-the-draw with his toy. I am ace at that now though. No-one can unholster a pink squeaky Mister Man faster than me.

[GrimmaTheNome]

That's one from my DM - she was nervous of dogs, used to carry a biscuit or two in her pocket if she went for a walk alone. Rich Teas, not dog biscuits

[AIBUqatada]

I love Rich Teas. They would have worked on me.

[ExitPursuedByABear]

I have posted several times about my spaniel's dog on dog aggression. It ruins loads of walks for me, but fortunately his recall is good. I always put him on a short lead and if the other unleashed dog comes up to him, I have the moral high ground if nothing else.

He is more hand bags at 5 paces than true biting aggression - he has never drawn blood, but it can lead to some pretty unpleasant exchanges with owners.

[GrimmaTheNome]

Yup. You will then inevitably get the owner of the big bouncy dog saying, 'Oh but he's friendly, just wants to play'. I've heard that often enough with our previous dog, a non-timid dachshund who would usually tell big dogs to Go Away verbally WOOF , but who wanted to murder any Boxer he came across (a playful one accidentally hurt him once). They don't always seem to get that its for their own dog's protection!

[AIBUqatada]

That's a shame, exit. I hope you have better experiences in future. I know how the pleasure of a dog walk can be spoilt by these encounters, or the fear of them.

In general, I am completely thrilled by the success of the squeaky toy solution. Both me and my dog now anticipate something lovely happening when another dog hoves into view, instead of feeling crabbed and miserable at the prospect. It is slowly changing his whole mindset. But of course that can only work if your dog is v v highly motivated by toys.

[AIBUqatada]

You also get owners who say, when you ask them to keep their dog back, "Oh, its ok if your dog nips him, he needs to be taught a lesson."

Grrr! Fume!!! Will you still say that if there is a vet bill? Do you not understand that my dog learns a lesson from that sort of encounter too -- the lesson being the unwanted one "Bite annoying dogs."

[ExitPursuedByABear]

Grimma - My dogs problems started with a boxer - although mine had knicked the Boxer's toy. He really went for him. And then another boxer who lives down the lane broke free from its collar and savaged mine. I suppose you can't blame them for going on the defensive. But it is not all dogs. And it has been a blind old cocker in the process of having a pooh, so no threat at all.

His ball is his favourite thing, and I can focus his attention with that, but woebetide any dog that tries to take it from him.

[daisydotandgertie]

But dogs do often just want to play, and it does dogs - especially nervy dogs - no favours to misinterpret that. Of even to shout at them or worse still, fend them off with a bloody stick.

It re-in forces the nervous dog's behaviour - it sees 'mum' who they look to for leadership and a hint on how to behave, fighting off a perfectly harmless dog and shouting at it and of course it learns entirely the wrong thing.

It also prevents dogs from learning to understand 'dog'. The signals a happy, playful dog makes and those that a miserable, aggressive dog make are different and ideally all dogs should be able to socialise, make mistakes and learn so that they can interpret them correctly themselves.

Playing is a massive part of a dog's life - they learn dog ettiquette, get told to bugger off if they go too far and probably much more besides! Have you ever watched puppies playing together? They fight and make the most blood curdling noises, but all if it is play. They learn bite inhibition by nipping a sibling too hard - the sibling yelps and the biter immediately stops.

Agression is to be avoided at all costs, but IME, the more dogs interact with each other, the less likely it is to happen in the first place. I just don't get the assumption that all other dogs are agressive, or that the owner of an agressive dog should be angry with other non agressive dogs, just for being dogs on a walk. If someone's dog is anything more than antisocial, then it should be muzzled while out and about.

Anti social is fine - and it has done my dogs a few favours in their time. It does them no harm to be told to bugger off every now and again - and to learn that no all dogs are up for a massive roar around the field game. They need to be a bit polite when they ask!

[daisydotandgertie]

And ABIU, I think it is ALL dogs who will eventually react to a situation they don't want to be in, not just nervy dogs.

The tipping point - and the tipping issue - might be completely different, but I am quite sure that all of them will react instinctively at some point.

[AIBUqatada]

I agree, daisy, that approaching dogs are almost always unaggressive. I am not remotely protecting my dog when I discourage their approach. I am protecting them.

Of course it is true that the more that dogs can interact freely the more socially competant they become. I would absolutely love to let my dog interact freely with approaching dogs, and I really do think that most of the time no significant harm would be done. But there is a definite risk that harm will be done, so I can't allow free interaction except with a few trusted dogs. The problem arises when other owners don't take that into account.

[Ephiny]

I think you handled it well - it wasn't your fault the other owner didn't have better control over his dogs. One of my two is a bit 'grumpy' and would probably have done similar, if another dog kept getting in his face like that and wouldn't take a hint. It sounds like it was a robust 'telling off' rather than aggression as such - if he was trying to hurt the other dog, there would have been more damage done surely?

[AIBUqatada]

Yes, I do think it was a limited telling-off bite. I actually think that my dog is quite effective in dog communication: his aggression is a limited piece of communication, very controlled and moderate; and he also knows how to back down instantly when he is outgunned by a very assured dog. I've seen him do that. But there is no getting away from the fact that he can do harm in some situations.

The business of passing countless dogs on walks is a pretty unnatural situation for dogs to have to deal with, and some find it easier than others. Once they pass puppyhood and adolescence, not all dogs have an interest in playing with dog strangers. The owners of playful dogs do need to understand that.

[GrimmaTheNome]

We don't fend off dogs who are approaching quietly, or who are under (leash or voice) control of an owner. But if you've an uncontrolled dog (or dogs) way bigger than your own bounding up, sometimes you have to intervene. My current dog tends to roll over and is liable to be trampled. I tend to assume other dogs aren't agressive - but sometimes there's just too much or too many of them.


I do find it sad when there are dogs who clearly just want to say hello who get curtly told 'leave it' as they approach - some are overcontrolled I think. If only everyone could find the happy medium!

[ExitPursuedByABear]

My spaniel used to love playing with other dogs, but since his aggression developed is simply not interested. I met one of his litter mates yesterday evening and they had a small sniff at each other but then completely ignored each other whilst behaving in exactly the same way, sniffing and circling etc. He will have a sniff at another dog and it all seems OK, but then sometimes all hell breaks loose. Tis very wearing.

[Ephiny]

Oh I know, it's a worry sometimes, and of course you don't want any dog to get hurt, even if it's not your fault.

I have one of each, funnily enough - the grumpy/intolerant one, and a big daft wants-to-play-with-everyone one. Both mean I need to keep a very careful eye out for other dogs approaching, as they can both create trouble in their own way!

[Piffle]

if that was my big out of control dogs that had approached your under control and constrained smaller dog I would have expected it tbh

I have one that harangues other dogs, not nasty but no respect, I always have her on a lead and headcollar when loose dogs are around, as she jumps other dogs in a playful way then when they jump and playback she growls and flips them with her mouth on their neck... she has never ever hurt a dog but it freaks me and other dog owners out, so away she is packed now...

You did everything you could bar muzzling, truly the out of control dogs have learned something...

[Elibean]

Agree with Piffle, and Daisy, and think you did really well OP....don't think your dog did badly either, tbh, given the circumstances (and his fear).

If I were the 'Dad' of the two bigger dogs, I would think nothing of it - or possibly apologise for letting my dogs be pushy (however well meant) with yours If he has a problem with any of it, it really is his problem!

I do also know what you mean about occasional pushy dogs - not aggressive, but dominant in their behaviour. We used to know a rotty/lab who was a bit like that, and there is a boxer Mouse plays with sometimes who won't take no for an answer. Its annoying for me, but Mouse doesn't seem that bothered luckily.

[noinspiration]

I have a dog aggressive dog and have had to date 5 trainers attempt to help me with this. They all have slightly different viewpoints, but all without exception have agreed that in situations such as this it is not helpful to let the dogs all interact together.

Advice has varied from throwing a shaker bottle on the ground in front on the approaching dog to distract it so you can walk away, to telling the other dog firmly (but not hysterically!) to back off. From this your dog learns that you have responsibility, that's all, not that the situation is fearful. Remaining completely calm is important.

With respect to learning appropriate doggie interaction, find a trainer who can train you and your dog around their dogs in a controlled situation. We started with me walking forward, collecting a second on lead dog as from the trainer whilst walking, and walking the two dogs parallel on either side of me. At no point were the dogs face on. As the dogs relax let the nervous dog sniff round hind quarters of the second dog (who should ideally be friendly and calm). V v gradually over time the nervous dog will learn appropriate interaction behaviours.