School said DD2 has no need for assessment, I think she has big problems - what do YOU think please... and what do I do about it?

[Vallhala]

Apologies for what is going to be a very long post.

Background:

I'm a lone mum to 2 DDs. DD2 is 13.5 She has always been challenging - doesn't sleep til 1 or 2am, no concept of personal danger, peculiar social skills, talks to strangers and discusses inappropriate matters, screams continuously in temper tantrums, violent rages, does not follow rules or accept punishment, steals from me, has odd eating habits, very hyper and on the go 24/7 etc.

For example, (these are all recent) - going off with a stranger who was looking for their dog despite being told not to, holes in door because DD1 wouldn't let her into bedroom, stole matches from my friend's and lighting them in her bedroom. She tells strangers all manner of personal detail, (My mum has had breast cancer, we live at... etc), steals money from me, DD1 and I have to hide make up etc although she has her own, all sorts.

If I punish bad behaviour by, for example, denying TV you will have to fight her off to get to the off switch. 5 mins later and she has turned it on again as soon as my back's turned. So I take the remote and hide it, but she will search it out, take it and use it. Have to hide all sweets/biscuits/cola etc as she will eat them all, even when told not to/thats enough/save til tomorrow. Have to hide the gravy granules as she drinks cup after cup. Plays with household cleaning stuff (spray bathroom cleaner squirted on towels in the airing cupboard), hoards almost obsessively, touches in EVERY shop, despite being told EVERY time. I'm v strict about this, always have been since the DDs were toddlers, she KNOWS by now it's not polite, socially acceptable behaviour.

She approaches other DC by leaping on their backs/grabbing the back of their necks and then wonders why she is ostracised! She's told a million times by other DC and me, to no avail. Gets on far better with younger DC than her own age, but is of above average intelligence. Very, very desructive, both accidental and far more frequently, deliberately. Will smash things up in temper. Won't let DD2 sleep at night, keeps going in to annoy/talk, shouts and screams when told off, knowing that neighbours and thus landlord will complain and our tenancy will (and has) been at risk but doesn't appear to care.

Also has moments of helpfulness, kindness and perfection. Its the rest of the time that's bringing me to my knees. Have tried everything over the years, btw, ignoring, comforting, talking, yelling, smacking, distracting...

Reacts REALLY badly to threat and fear, both direct (eg bullying) or indirect (eg next door neighbours shouting at each other into the night). This is displayed in tantrums like a 2yo (real on the floor, screaming stuff), aggression, sleeplessness. Every time she feels unsettled/at threat, life at home becomes hell. Often she will "engineer" an argument, suddenly declaring that she won't tidy her room/go to school/that it's all my fault she can't find something and that she is going to act in an unacceptable way, just waiting for me to react.

She left primary school at end of yr 6 where she was described as intelligent but emotionally/socially immature, good with adults and younger DC, far less so with peers, but very articulate and found it hard to establish friendships for quite a while (started this primary mid year 5). Was described as EXTREMELY well mannered and NO PROBLEM! Only 69 DC in entire school, this school knew her REALLY well. At this time she was hell at home (we had abusive neighbours who threatened me and scared her). Almost every time she REALLy kicks off I can see a clear link between this and outside factors, but she kicks off anyway in the manner of a far younger child for all sorts of petty/unknown reasons. I took her to CAHMS, no result and soon she refused to go any more (described the psych as patronising!).

We moved, she started yr 7 at v large local comp. Was bullied from day 1, (called ginger cunt, spat at in face, had things stolen and destroyed in very personal attempt to distress her). This went unaddressed for ages, school were appalling. She started to verbally retaliate and challenged staff, v rude to them. Ended up suspended. School promised me an Ed psych appt which I fought for 9 months for them to deliver then school refused to provide it. At the beginning the HOY said he suspected an autism spectrum condition, promised assessment but school later denied this and said they COULDN'T provide this, that this was not a service the school's SEN/LA ed welfare team offers.

Bullying caused her to refuse school, come home crying and vomiting as soon as she got in, yet more sleeplessness. Was under GP and school nurse for sleeplessness. However, the HT told me that DD2 was "very happy" at their school, the indication being that I was P2ndB and there was nothing wrong. This is a v brief idea of just some of the problems with the new secondary school, the fights I had to even get answers or even a basic 1 page assessment were horrendous, took months and months.

Have seen all this before - this started in another primary when the 3 of us were threatened and abused over a long period of time by a parent. This was unresolved, some dodgy handling of it by the HT, causing me to complain to LA so I am already known as a problem parent and I suspect that the LA are loath for a connection between the incidents and DD2s behaviour to be made as they are now aware of the former HTs suspect handing of it all.

March this year we moved again, and girls started a new secondary. I warned them of DD2s past and challenging behaviour but they were unwilling to take steps to support her, saying "see ho it goes" and don't appear to have read her past school notes though I asked them to. On just the 2nd day of new school DD was suspended for reacting to bullying remarks and rudeness to staff who pulled her up about this reaction - this was illegal (no formal, written details), confirmed as such by ACE. I currently have a formal complaint going with LA about this (which they are denying/trying to worm out of!).

All settled down, then just before the summer hols DD2 was permanantly excluded. She had brought a swiss army knife/multi-tool into school. My fault, we'd been away, kids had taken school baggs with homework with them, i'd used the tools to open a bottle of wine, put it into her school bag in haste to pack up and get home. Still, it's my word against the schools, the rules are clear, no knives for whatever reason, I accept that. When asked to hand over knife to TA, DD2 said no and asked to hand to class teacher who she knew and trusted more as class was beginning to nudge, comment and make her feel worried. She was initially refused permission, as far as I can make out, and in turn became verbally abusive to staff.

Upshot is, I am to attend the governors meeting at the beginning of term, together with the HT and the LA Inclusion manager (who is responsible for finding DD another school) where the exclusion will be rubber-stamped. I will NOT be contesting it although I will be explaining all the above. What I NEED, desperately, is to get support in place and assessments GUARANTEED before DD2 attends another school... and that new school to be SUITABLE for her, not just the nearest with places/cheapest for LA to get her to. I don't want the highest achieving school just one that will CARE. I aim to use that meeting to explain what DD is like, what her past experiences are and get help from the LA Inclusion Manager.

The LA SHOULD have provided an education for DD from the 6th day of her permanent exclusion - ie 4 days before end of term. They did not and I am waiting for them to write/email me to tell me what they will offer DD for the start of next term as it's their responsibility to find her a place. I can't physically get her to ANY school, we have no transport and live in a village with one bus every 2 hours so wherever she goes will HAVE to be the LAs choice, as that's the only way I can get transport provided for her, they won't provide/fund transport if it's parental preference and not their decision. Not prepared to speak over the phone, have been lied to before and want everything in writing!

My questions, if you've managed to get this far, are these:

Does anyone please have any advice as to how to get help/support/assessment for DD2, as much as possible put into place BEFORE she starts a new school?

Does anyone have any advice how to ensure that she is allocated a SUITABLE school and not a sink estate one just because it has places?

Does it sound to you as if DD has potential "difficulties" or additional needs, or AM I just being P2ndB and a crap parent? DD1 is 15, she is NOTHING like DD1, in fact I think I can boast that as teenagers go DD1 is one of the nicest, well behaved, respectful, not and never prone to playing with matches or pouring conditioner down the shower rose head, talking inappropriately to strangers etc.

ANY help or advice anyone could give would be so very, very much appreciated.

I think you should go to your GP and ask for her to be referred for an assessment. take a copy of you you wrote on here. I think you will be more likely to get help with your daughter this way. The trouble with school is if the kids are doing ok academically they do just leave them to flounder in my experience.

Problem is, Ineed2, that our assessment service is within an adult-based MH premises some miles from home and DD simply will not go. I can order, demand, bribe, but no, she won't budge and I can't physically drag a 13 yo onto 2 buses to take her there. Have tried in the past.

Hi Starlight

No, she hasn't got a statement. According to the first secondary school, which ignored the bullying for ages until she reacted with an abusive attitude to it, there was no reason to assess her. In their opinion the Autism assessment that the Head of Year suggested was not something they could offer. The SENCO offered DD2 an Ed Psych assessment which I accepted gratefully, then school spent several months refusing to answer when it was to happen.

I eventually made a formal complaint about this, and some time later they offerred me the opportunity to talk to the Ed Psych but made it patently clear that DD2 would not be seen by Ed Psych. That was in Dec last year, I'd spent a year fighting for sweet FA and watching DD2 suffer by then. I gave up in despair and we moved house and thus the DDs moved school in March this year.

I'd opt for assessment.
Consider private if NHS a nightmare re : logistics/time-taken.

From on here I got info. on a Consultant Paediatrician specialising in Neurology in Middlesbrough, tenth of the cost of private diagnostic assessment local to me. Don't, unfortunately, remember his name. (Had his own webpage, two special needs kids himself)

Sounds to have been a terrible time for you, with no support for yourself or your daughter.

Shall try & search to find a link to aforementioned consultant, certainly more affordable than many.

Also, I would think it a given your child presents with SEN (special educational needs) so getting hold of a copy of the code of conduct to read & let school know you have it, could only be helpful.

Best wishes.

Those are certainly options. Money's tight, but there may be ways round that (no, I won't rob a bank, promise!).

DD may be more willing to see a private consultant than she ever would CAHMS (bribing won't work for CAHMS, tried it many times). I'd couch it in terms of addressing the bullying/sleeplessness etc rather than "I think you have SN".

Meantime I will request a statutory assessment. Can I do this although she has not currently got a school to go to, despite it being the responsibility of the LA to provide education and her still being on the excluding school's roll until the meeting in early September, where they will officially approve the exclusion?

And sorry, I forgot my manners. THANK YOU for your advice.

I take it that you ladies too think that there is a possibility that DD has SN, do you?

Hi Vallhala

I had a look at your other recent threads - what a very stressful situation.

It does sounds like there are additional needs here and the challenging behaviour is not a reflection on your parenting. My DS has also had numerous exclusions and I know how horrible it can be when that instantly invites judginess.

Ironically, I found that exclusion did accelerate the speed of intervention and it was easier to get a statement because of it. Very sad that the system works this way but passive children often get ignored while violent behaviour gets more attention due to level of risk.

An Ed Psych would not be professionally qualified to dx ASD - that may be what the Head of Year was referring to. Diagnosis is usually done by a medically qualified person (paed or psychiatrist, with support from a multi disciplinary team). But I still think a school should have been able to refer you to the right team rather than just say that they don't offer an assessment.

Can you go approach the MH services and ask for a home visit? They'll be reluctant probably, but may budge if you insist.

Given the age of your DD2, I would agree that a private assessment is worth considering. Statementing is a long process (min 6 months) and LAs are reluctant to statement older children, so you want to move as quickly as possible. Be very careful when choosing a consultant though - LAs try to dismiss private dx but won't if the professional reputation is strong.

Definitely read through the SEN COP. Then read it again and highlight it and put sticky notes in and take it to any meetings with the school/LA.

If you get a statement, you can specify which school your DD2 goes to. But you won't get a statement anytime soon, so you need to deal with the 'normal' schools admissions/appeals process. I know much less about this, but I know there are people on the primary/secondary boards who sit on the panels who should be able to give you advice.

I'm in Scotland (single-parent too) so not entirely sure but would have thought that you could apply & start the ball rolling regarding statutory assessment as LA have a duty to provide a suitable education provision full-stop.

I've phoned the NAS education helpline before, they take details & call back (can take a few days), very helpful & knowledgeable.
Before I had Aspergers diagnosis for my son too, so if you mention you are pursuing diagnostic assessment they will be very helpful.

www.autism.org.uk/en-gb/our-services/advice-and-support/advocacy-for-education-se rvice/advocacy-for-education-service-in-england-and-wales.aspx

Please understand that I offer this info. to help & in no way think it specifically applies to your child.
I just found them so helpful, pre-diagnosis, when I had a child who had me pulling my hair out!

I think your DD needs to be assessed for Asperger's Syndrome. If you write to the LA requesting a statutory assessment and the assessment is agreed you may find that this triggers an ASD assessment.

You could also ask the school nurse to refer your DD to the community paediatrician. Depending on what area you're in the CP may be able to assess for ASD.

You sound like you've gone through a horrible couple of years desperately needing support for your DD and getting none.

When my DD1 refused to engage with the psychologist who specialised in AS at our local CAMHS they found her a different clinician who she could relate to better. Is it worth you asking for this?

Thank you all. I will certainly take the advice given and work on DD2 to make her more obliging too.

It's all a new area to me, I'm totally lost and am so grateful to you all.

Clearly we can't diagnose, equally clearly your daily life with ds has far more in common with a SN family than with most typical families... so good luck with kicking up to get a proper assessment and/or diagnosis.

You don't need either for a statement or for DLA so get your applications for both in ASAP. It's worth seeing your GP to get all the above noted in her medical records. Write to CAMHS to explain that dd won't see them and why; enclose a copy of your post above. To me, such difficulty getting her there means she is more likely to have a significant problem. They may offer a home visit which might help if it doesn't freak her out.

If you think she has a particular condition, ask if CAMHS can suggest any other avenues through which she can be assessed. If going private is an option, say so and ask for some recommendations of who to see. If they write back saying can't help, try the GP again. And as starlight will doubtless back up, keep copies of everything. All of this makes you more likely to get help, less likely to alienate the potentially helpful and covers your back if help is initially refused because you 'wouldn't engage' with the services offerred.

If they don't offer a school ask them to fund home tuition.
Do you have any schools which specialise in HFA / Aspergers locally you could go and look at even if private ones just in case that is a road you need to go down / to get some advice.
If you look up Josh Muggleton he has ASD and spoke at conference recently and mentioned he was out of school and used a home schooling website - details are on his website - I think you sign up and teachers mark work online etc - again could be a back up plan for the short term anyway.
You could appeal the exclusion on grounds that excluding her for reasons to do with SN - have you called IPSEA / ACE? Wonder if any benefit to do that to force LA to address the issue. Look at IPSEA factsheets on exclusions

Agnes there's no way they would fund home tuition. That would open up the floodgates for hundreds of similarly let down parents to expect the same!

I have no idea of local specialist schools but do know that private education of this sort is beyond my means. Tbh if I home educated I would do so myself - I have done in the past but as a lone parent without support or the income necessary, no transport and being in an isolated village, I don't WANT to HE a child who is so demanding and can't be left unsupervised.

I've yet to call IPSEA but have spoken to ACE. I won't be appealing the exclusion, I don't see any benefit whatsoever in DD returning to a school which managed to break the law within 36 hours of her starting there and which didn't listen to a damned word I said about her. Besides, the reaction from her peers would not be good as the whole school appear to know that she's being expelled and she won't cope with the pointing and nudging.

Sorry to sound so negative, but I think that this has got to be fought slightly differently.

Sink estates school Valhalla are often the dream for kids with extra needs- becuase they often have more experience. I know it seems silly but we pulled ds3 from a top performing CofE primary and sent him to an SNU within a school on a sprawling council estate and I will happily wax lyrical (have done!) about the whole difference in attitude and acceptance from the minute you walk in: no longer is ds3 the PITA or denied even drinkis becuase he won't fit in and have what the otehs are having, instead dinner ladies and heads alike actually come out to meet the parents of the lovely little boy. I can't thank my lucky stars enough that I didn't notice the peeling paint and decor and took the punt.

WRT to the rest I would suggest she does need an assessment. She's quite similar to my ds2 (perhaps in a bit more magnified way) who is not one of my ASD boys but very much on the borderline of whether we see anyone or not, after a lot of input he's been taken off the SEN register this year and been given an informal dx of dyspraxia and maybe a touch of adhd: it was working within that framework that made a difference.

I can understand why you're abit confused- heck I am no expert but know more than most (part way through an MA in ASD with two boys with ASD) and I could never work out whetehr ds2 needed an assessment either. but the way I see it finding a route to assessment is probably a logical default- questions need answers don't they?

Oh and as well as IPSEA try SOS!SEN: i find them very good in different ways (IPSEA for deatailed info, SOS!SEN for fighting spirit)