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For example, if I asked 'what was the last example of bullying you had to deal with, and how?' would the Head be likely to give details or just fob me off?

And how to ask questions that unpick the publicly available scores and tables etc?

Because I know they will have a spiel. And I'd like to know what really goes on but have no idea how to find out. Thanks.

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Hello Vulpus.

I think you're more on the case than me - I'd never have thought of asking a member of staff that!

when we were shown around by children, I made a point of asking them, in child-friendly ways, about how friendly the school was. The schools I liked were clearly very good on pastoral and friendly stuff. If the children talked about the good relationships between older and younger students, i was very happy.

The school we chose had a strong record of the kids getting involved in pastoral and community work, in order to foster an ethos of care. I thought that augured well.

I also did something weird, and went to visit schools, as in hanging about outside, at chucking-out time, just to listen in to kids chatting and watch what happened as they left.

That's weird, isn't it!! I only did it a few times. 'Twas interesting. We're in London. If there were a lot of police vans at lunch time - off my list it went. Which makes me a bit picky, I know. But each to their own.

rofl and <sweat> at police vans.

Am sheltered up here in the sticks.

It's weird, isn't it?

What's weirder, is that i so nearly didn't write that because I do, genuinely, have friends who would be v. offended by the fact I crossed a school off a list for that reason!!

Hey, mumsnet's anonymous!

anyway, you need some teachers on here, really.

If I did talk to staff, I engaged them in long chats to try and draw out how they taught subjects I had a vague knowledge of. Obviously, it's horses for courses, but i was looking for innovative, exciting teaching and ideally with a vague idea of the way the discipline was being taught in higher education.

I also looked out for indications that the management of the school was all it should be. Though I never, really. got to the bottom of how to spot that one. for that, I;m afraid I relied on hearsay. You'll really need a teacher for that one!

I would ask:

'How will I be contacted if there is a problem with my child's progress, or behaviour?'

(Obviously they'll ring you if he breaks an arm trampolining or sets fire to the Portakabins. What if he's being an almighty pain in lessons or 3 grades below his target GCSE result?)

& 'How will our child be deciding her options? Will she be able to choose from a wide array of GCSEs, BTECs & other pathways, & what will happen if we disagree with the options school thinks are appropriate for her?'

&, as you suggest, but maybe less specific so more productive: 'What sort of bullying goes on at your school, & how do you combat it?'

(& of course if they say 'Bullying? At St. Cuthbert's? We don't have bullying!' then you walk away & don't look back).

"How do you get a balance between getting children to do their best and putting undue pressure on them?"

Produces some interesting answers, IME, both at primary and secondary.

"Are pupils allowed off the school site at lunchtime?" Whether the answer is Yes or No, "What is the rationale for that?"

Tbh I think Open Days/Evenings give you a surprisingly good insight into the vibe at the school, although I know some people are v. cynical. Check out the relationship between pupils and teachers in particular. Formality/informality is less important than warmth and respect.

"How do you choose students to show prospective parents round the school?" Some handpick the class swots, some let all Y9s loose on the job.

Look past the polish and feel the vibe. We felt that a hugely desirable school was actually oppressive and over-controlled, whereas a much rougher comp with disaffected kids hanging round the local tube station had quite a funky creative atmosphere inside.

"What would the school do if my 14/15yo started becoming disaffected with school and refused to work or co-operate with discipline?" might give you some insight into the school's pastoral and academic mentoring structure.

I suspect that if you asked those kind of questions on open evening, you wouldn't get the kind of answer you wanted - simply because open evenings tend to be all singin' all dancin' affairs which have been prepared for by all and are, hopefully, attended by many. If you want to grill the head, make an appointment, and go armed with a list of astute questions. That way, he or she will be able to give you their full attention. Ask about how bullying is dealt with, ask about staff turnover (will give you an indication of how happy the staff are, and how stable the school environment is for kids). Ask about university entrants from sixth form (if relevent) and about any specific extra-curricular activities your DC might be interested in. Ak about how the school fits into the community, and get specific examples - if the school and its students are involved with the local community in a positive and active way, it says alot about the school itself.

I just don't think open evening is the best time - the head won't have enough time to devote to you, and this kind of discussion would be better in his/her office with a cup of coffee.

Oh & go & find a teacher of a subject you loathed at school.

Say: 'I hated English/Maths/Geography! How do you teach it, because I'd like my dc to appreciate it more than I did?'

I always like those parents...gives you, as a teacher, a proper opportunity to 'sell' your subject.

& if they can't come up with any answers that make you wish they had taught the hated subject when you were at school - that's a worry.

Pump the child who takes you round for info

Find out/Ask staff if they would send their child there - as in definitely to mine, no way in hell to dh's.

And go round in the day when the students are in lessons.

Brilliant questions, thanks. Especially good to hear from teachers who inevitably know how things really are.

<Tis Wilf btw, had to namechange when I heard Thixotropic and oobleck were real words on another thread >

Look for kids who are really engaged with Open Evening, too. Six of my year 10s did a 'Who is to blame for the death of Romeo & Juliet?' debate in character.

They were very good & super-enthusiastic, & the fact that they'd given up an evening to do it hopefully tells prospective parents that we have something worthwhile going on.

(Even if I did bribe them with Haribo & the promise of a corking Speaking & Listening Coursework grade!)

Could always post on here too specifically about the school, to get parental, or even teacher, opinions.

Yes. Might do that with a namechange when been to Open days etc...

How to unpick teaching for different abilities? Obv my son is a GENIUS and we have options of a decent comp, some less decent but possibly 'happier' comps and out of county grammar (vv selective and vv long way away).

Really though, he is higher ability in maths and science in particular and is already doing lots of Y7 & 8 extension maths. How do I ask about this kind of stuff without sounding like a fecking nightmare parent?

Vulpus - in that case you should ask about higher education destinations (as others have said). If a good proportion go to "good" universities, doing "good" subjects, you know that the school is able to support dc like your ds and that he will have a cohort to hang out with. (ie, no "boffin syndrome" - that was you, wasn't it?)

It also indicates a pretty organised school.

No sixth forms in local comps... not sure they'll know will they?

Tricky!

Where do they go for 6th form then?

(Only half joking here but, could you find out where the majority of the dc go from each school and then go and ask the staff there which school they'd send their dc to? Actually, that really is going the extra mile, isn't it! )

Big local colleges, which include 6th form centres. Small A level turnover, big vocational etc output. Some go off to independent/grammar school 6th forms.

Good suggestions. It's terrifying to have to think so far ahead. i only realised I had to think at all in the last few weeks...

Then they should know about the 6th form colleges to which they 'feed'.

Honestly, you should be able to get some sensible answers if you say 'He is gifted in Maths', especially if you have some idea of his current levels.

Going in saying 'oh my dc is terribly gifted you know' may roll a few teacher eyeballs unless you are able to be a tad more specific!

Talk to the Maths staff. Most teachers do actually like gifted students, you know...they raise everyone's game & are generally very nice to have onboard.

If you're a subject graduate, as secondary teachers generally are, it's lovely to have students who actually challenge your own knowledge, as opposed to merely challenging your ability to communicate a KS3/GCSE level version of it.

Ask to see school policies on things that particularly interest/concern you - then you at least have it in writing.

Thanks for all the answers so far. I'm still sweating over it all though. <argh: head explodes> And we're only looking at two schools.

"Can you explain the steady slide down the league tables?" Goes down well with headmistresses, I've found.

<snort>

I will be hounded out. Actually both schools going up but what does that actually tell me?

And do I ignore or make a note of the flyblown 25 year old kids' artwork on the walls in one school vs swanky new displays in the other? So hard to know which bits ACTUALLY matter

Message withdrawn

Only 2 open evenings? Vulpus, you lightweight I've got about 7 to go to! 5 Grammars and 2 Indy.

I live in the back end of the world, out of catchment (by less .5 mile either way) for 5 grammar schools (we live at the point where 3 bourough councils meet) and the local comp scares me (remembers why the grammar school system doesn't always work) and will terrify my rather wimpy mild mannered DD.

I am petrified about open evenings and worry that swanky art departments will sway me DD and we will overlook the Important Stuff.

Given recent experience we will def be asking re most recent bullying issues.

At DD's old school the parents of Yr 5s all got together and went/asked/had lunch and discussed relative merits - not at new school though.

<feels out of depth>