how to address problem of alcohol with friend?

[kiritekanawa]

Friend has a long & troubled history of childhood issues, controlling arse of a (now ex-)husband, birth trauma, episodes of alcohol-related trauma, suicide watch, etc. She is a marvellous mother to 2 lovely kids, and has got her life on track very well in the last few years. She knows the score both re: alcohol and re: getting help and the sorts of help required and available. She is also very likely to be aware that any alcohol-related issues like drunk driving or being over the driving limit at work would lose her her job.

When under stress she returns to alcohol. Her ex-husband behaves like a loon with the kids if he suspects she as been drinking - shouting, screaming, frightening the kids, "rescuing" them and whisking them away to his house where he talks about how useless Mummy is. I can see why he is angry and frightened, but he's really not helping the situation, particularly as frequently she hasn't actually been drinking when he decides she has - or she has only had a very small amount. Once he's whisked the children off to safety she then feels dreadful and gets properly drunk by herself.

I think this happened yesterday - I saw her last night and she was trying too hard to be socially animated, as she does when she's sad. She also had alcohol on her breath.

How can I address this with her? What can I say?

She has told me elements of her story, but doesn't open up to me particularly. I think she has friends she may talk to more, but I don't know them. I know most of the details from a mutual friend, who used to be this woman's rock, but they have stepped back a bit from each other in recent years.

bump - anyone got any ideas?

The easy way out for me is to assume she doesn't want to discuss this stuff with me and that it's none of my business. However, i strongly suspect that this is the route everyone else is taking - if they've even noticed that her social manner is strained or that she's been drinking. They may not have noticed the alcohol - I smell it more easily than most people.

Has she sought any help with alcohol issues? I ask because if she's done any work around addiction and misuse she may be more open to talking about it than if she's still trying to figure it out on her own.

You could say 'I understand that you may be having some difficulties and if you ever want to talk about it or need support in not drinking I am here for you' and then let her take the lead if she so chooses?

You can't force anything on her and she has to come to the decision herself to help herself before anyone else can help her.

You sound lovely btw and it's great that you care enough to try and figure out what to do for the best. I think when it comes to her husband not helping, if he is telling the kids that mummy's useless then yes I agree, how do you know he's saying that, on her say so or his?

We never know what goes on behind closed doors and his reaction to her drinking even a small amount is likely to be as a result of past experience telling him that once she's started it's unlikely she'll stop until she's had a skinful in which case he's quite right to take the kids off to safety.

Yes, she has sought help with the alcohol, and with depression, suicidal thoughts, etc, with several periods as an inpatient at the local hospital about 5-7 years ago.

I agree that I don't know what goes on behind closed doors.
However, I know the husband quite well through the same social channels as the wife, and through work; and he is very frequently outspokenly critical of her, to all the other people in the circle, when she's not there. When she is there he maintains a sardonic distance. He has form for being a bit immature, for holding grudges, and for not seeing the good in people, or giving them any chances at all once he's decided he doesn't like them. This leads me to think (but not know) that he is treating her as though he "knows" she hasn't really changed from the situation that led to the inpatient times 7 years ago.

He gives her no credit for having pulled herself out of being an inpatient on the alcohol ward on suicide watch, leaving hospital to a totally broken marriage and 2 small kids, getting herself through a uni degree while on inadequate benefits, and getting a good job in her new field before she'd even finished the degree. The strain has clearly been immense on her.

It's also clearly been a big strain on him, and he has helped her (very grudgingly), but he has meanwhile not shown a lot of evidence of growing up much. He doesn't see that his (exceptionally self-centred, frequently nasty) behaviour has ever had any effect on her wellbeing.

I have a friend who has an alcohol problem and there is NO WAY I could, or would, broach the subject. I'm not backward at coming forward, either. But addiction is very complex and to interfere could send the addict into a major spin - of shame, usually; that it's out there, that 'everybody knows'.

It's generally accepted that the only person who can address the addiction is the addict - though an addict may accept comment from fellow addicts. You could perhaps address that you've noticed how her ex baits her - but I really wouldn't mention the subsequent spiral into booze because it could spectacularly backfire.

She's been in recovery before, she knows the ropes. She knows the road to recovery and, unfortunately, there's nothing anyone can do until she chooses to step back on that road.

Speaking from experience, stay out of it. You won't be thanked.

Springy - you make your point well, and I've taken it on board.

Do you think it would make a difference that "everybody knows" in this particular case already; as the breakdown into & recovery from alcoholism happened within a tight circle of friends who all see each other several times a week; and that she has several times expressed a strong preference for people not pussyfooting around the issue?

I think she and the ex husband have both had a stressful few weeks. If it made enough of a difference that everyone already knows (and it may not), I would probably say "look, i noticed this last night; it wouldn't have been obvious to most people but I was standing next to you for 2.5 hours; I realise you may not want any intervention from me in which case that is fine, but if you would like to talk about things, I'm here, as this is clearly territory that needs addressing"

she was trying too hard to be socially animated, as she does when she's sad

Maybe you can forget the alcohol part - and all the complex assumptions and judgements that go with that territory (no criticism, OP) - and treat her as you would any friend who is sad.

I am having a very tough time at the moment (no booze involved) and a lovely friend, new friend actually, has tonight turned up with chocolate mousse, and big hugs, and told me any time I feel very awful, I should just present myself at her door. And I really do feel a bit safer and less alone in the world because of that.

So just make sure your door is open, and your arms, and your ears. And don't feel it's up to you to tell her anything, or to fix anything, as hard as that is when we care.

Otoh I think the ex sounds he needs like a kick up the arse

If you hear the husband criticising her, do you pull him up on it? Ask him if he thinks being so hostile is helpful to her mood, and what knock on effect this has on his children. I would be suggesting that positive offers of help will be better all round than him harping on the past. Taking the drink out of the equation, who wants to hear a colleague sniping bitterly about their ex ad nauseum?

Yes, that does change things. Though as sosix says, be prepared to be shot as the messenger.

Does she go to AA? That's the place for her - with other addicts who know all the tricks and pitfalls. Addiction can be extraordinarily tenancious. Heightened pressure and headfuckery can roll it out all over again (and the descent can be astonishingly fast )

Rootypig - good point. I do that with her anyway - and it may be enough.

Flimflammer - the feistier among us (including me) tell him he's being a dick frequently. Unfortunately it doesn't really help. In a larger town this might be easier to resolve - here, people are conflict-avoidant because it's so small.

Springy - she never has gone to AA, though I think that may have been down to the difficulties of childcare and uni and having night-time freelance jobs to earn enough and so on. It might make some sense now.

I think I'll send her a gentle email mostly emphasising what Rootypig said about being available, but also say that I'd noticed the alcohol and that I was happy to talk about it, take it no further, help if she wanted, whatever - just that I'd noticed and cared about whether she needed help with it, whether or not that comes from me.

I'm afraid that mentioning the alcohol is likely to push her away. It makes it sound as if you've been scrutinising her.

Stick to being a good friend and trust her to open up if she wants to.

I wouldn't send any general emails. Invite her for dinner, or offer her childcare, nothing asked in return. (These are the two things my heart desires but I think they're pretty universal.)

OK. Haven't sent the email yet. Still pondering whether it's a good or a bad idea.

We have her over for dinner fairly frequently. Childcare isn't something she really needs - she has 50% shared care with the ex, the kids have gazillions of playdates and activities - so she gets a reasonable amount of time to herself. We see her 3x/week for 2-3 hours at a time, at an activity we all do.

I completely get that it may well not be my place to comment on the alcohol.

However, the consequences are dire if the alcohol gets out of control.
Being caught over the driving limit (which she may have been close to on Sunday night) would involve instant job loss and being unable to ever get another job in that field; that would then involve a return to benefits and the need to downsize again back to cramped (i.e. 2 kids + mummy in one bedroom, 2-room basement flat), damp, dark accommodation; ex would probably go for the jugular, demand a divorce, and go for custody of the kids this time, and would then very likely move countries back to his family, which he has threatened to do in the past.

Given all that, it seems irresponsible to watch and do nothing.

I've been back and read your OP.

I still think a nice evening, just the two of you (you get time together often, but do you get this?) where you can have a glass of wine (yes, wine) and you can say, hey, how are things going with señor twat, your ex-p? and see if you can get her to open up to you, is so, SO much better than an email saying hey, I think you've been drinking.

In fact the more I think about it, the more just don't send an email at all. Dreadful things, emails. Only good for organising stuff.

To remove the children from the UK would be a fairly protracted legal process, he'd have to petition the court under Hague Convention. If when you talk to her there are continuing problems and ex is being vile, encourage her to document these incidents and his behaviour, it will be invaluable if there is a problem.

Thanks Rootypig. I will follow your advice re email vs. dinner. FWIW the kids aren't in the UK, so the process is far, far less complicated if the removal were to happen. Hopefully it won't come to that though.

Can you say which country you're in? she may well still be protected by international law. How worrying though.

Astonished she hasn't been to AA. What sort of recovery has she had, out of interest? Just her and a bunch of professionals with textbooks? I'd find that isolating (and shaming) for a start.

As I said above, addicts (in recovery) know in forensic detail exactly the myriad ways an addict gets sucked back in to the addiction. They're all fully committed to recovery and help one another out. By being brutally straight.

If you are sure there are others in her life who can step up if she freezes you out then I'd go for the jugular iiwy. She's asked for it straight so give it to her straight - if she is serious about recovery she will value what you have to say, especially if you're clear that your focus is on the consequences. As you say, there is a vast amount at stake here and you can't just stand by; particularly as full relapse, often catastrophically much worse than before, can happen in a flash. I'd speak to her face to face, not an email.

And tell her to get to AA! Meetings morning, noon and night; every day, a number of meetings every day (at least in the UK but also well-established worldwide).

I don't know the full details of the recovery other than that she has never gone to AA.

I think much of it was fairly brutal i.e. come out of hospital ward straight into rental accommodation and new separation from husband (who refused to have her back in "his" house) with 2 very young kids.

There would have been counselling and antidepressants and sympathetic doctors, and probably social workers, but most of the recovery would have been simply being distracted by caring for young children, day in, day out, for years.

As a strategy it probably lacks a lot of necessary care, but in her case it's been pretty effective as she has picked herself up, dusted herself off, and got cracking to get herself a (completely new) professional degree and career, got herself into a better house, and is now bringing up the kids in the way she'd imagined she would (though obviously minus the ex-husband).

Will take her out to dinner and a concert - that way we talk a bit, she has time to think, but there's no need to keep talking after a while unless it's clear she wants/needs to keep talking, in which case we ditch the concert.

She sounds like a bit of a champ!

No specific advice, but I share your dilemma. I have a good friend who has been through rehab once and relapsed last year. She 'hid' it (terribly) for six months or so, and then effectively had a breakdown where she was forced to confront her issues again. So her big reveal about the relapse wasn't really a big reveal, but as I had spent six months ignoring the fact she was drinking, I have only myself to blame. I was wary in case it made the situation worse, for all of the reasons above.

Fast forward to after the most recent relapse, where she is adamant she has stopped again. After her first rehab she told everyone, was very open about not drinking and why. Always open about her past.

So, having noticed she had been drinking again (we volunteer together and I was seriously ticked that she would put me through the nonsense of effectively ignoring what was going on again) I tried a few attempts to get together socially so that I could sound her out and be nice. She blocked everything. So I asked her outright how much she was drinking, and it did not go well at all. Since she has relapsed, her previous openness about her past has been completely reversed, she accused me of hounding her, etc etc etc.

Anyhoo - we got through it. I explained that I wasn't prepared to pretend it wasn't happening, as that had spectacularly failed the last time. She still hasn't given me a straight answer, and I know she is still drinking. It is putting me in a rough position with her volunteer role, in much the same way as your friend and her job/ driving.

As I said, no advice. But there is a lot of difference between an alcoholic on the straight and narrow in terms of their openness levels, and an alcoholic who may be relapsing. In fact not relapsing. Relapsed.

All she will say is that she is doing recovery differently this time.

I have to say that I nearly ended up having a breakdown myself trying to work out wtaf to do. The first rule of supporting alcoholics is to establish distance. Protect yourself, as well as supporting them.

My concern would be that she is relapsing while having care of her DCs - no wonder her husband is worried. If she's too drunk to drive then she's too drunk to look after her DCs. If the problem is well-known anyway, I would try to discuss it - it's not just about her but her DCs too. Good luck.

I have to be honest. Much as I admire your friend for the improvements she's made in her life, which are very impressive, it doesn't sound to me as though she is anywhere close to being in control of her alcoholism.

I am the daughter, grand-daughter, sister and niece to alcoholics. I have known literally hundreds of alcoholics through AA, Al-Anon and other routes.

In my experience, while it's certainly possible for some alcoholics to learn to drink in moderation, it is vanishingly rare. The vast, vast majority have to stop drinking entirely. Many can't eat a pudding with 'raw' alcohol in, such as sherry trifle, safely. Some couldn't eat a stew made with alcohol, even though most of the alcohol has cooked off. Some can't even kiss their partners if their partners have had a drink earlier in the day. The fact your friend is still drinking at all is a red flag.

Another big red flag is that she uses alcohol to manage her stress. To the point of getting "properly drunk" - that's a third ref flag.

A fourth red flag, in the context of her drinking, is that other friends have felt the need to distance themselves from her. Presumably they're doing that for their self-protection.

I think that, however much of an immature, controlling arse her XH may be, his fears about her alcohol consumption are well-founded. I understand why he's reacting the way he does to her drinking (I'm not saying it's ideal, it's clearly not - but it is very understandable).

Her XH will have seen her at her very worst. You don't say how old her children are, but they may also have seen some awful things. One Christmas I saw my grandfather sobbing at the bottom of the stairs because he'd fallen down drunk and couldn't get his legs to work. I was terrified. As an adult, I saw my father wake up craving vodka, down a bottle, vomit into a bucket that he kept for that purpose next to his bed, and then drink the vomit because he was so desperate.

There is a (male) poster on here who had to tell his children that their mother drank herself to death. That's what the XH fears he will have to do for his children one day.

Your friend will have lied to her XH. Not once, but over and over and over and over again. She will have hidden her consumption from him. She may have hidden bottles around their house. Children's bedrooms are a popular choice for that (not saying your friend did, just that it wouldn't be a surprise if she did).

You blame the XH for not letting her back into 'his' house after her stint in hospital. I don't. Unless you've lived with an alcoholic you just can't comprehend what his life would have been like. Have a look at some of the threads in Relationships where posters describe their life with partners who are problem drinkers. They are advised - rightly - of the three C's: they didn't Cause their partner's alcoholism, they can't Control it, and they can't Cure it. And they are advised - rightly - that only the alcoholic can cure themselves and that they need to be away from the family while they do it. And that it will take months before they can be said to be 'safe' to come home, if ever.

Which brings me to what you can do for your friend. Absolutely nothing. All you can do is be there when (I'd like to say if, but based on what you've written I fear it will be when) she lapses.

You sound like a really lovely, good, person.

Brilliant post, cinnabar. So sorry to hear you've been up to your neck in this horror.

I simply can't comprehend why she hasn't gone to AA..... unless of course that is yet another delaying/denial tactic on her part. The poster's friend, above, who said she was 'doing recovery differently this time' (groan) - she wouldn't be able to get away with that in AA. Which may be why she doesn't go, of course. And round and round it goes

However, I would say that until she goes to AA - or, rather, fully commits to the AA recovery model - she hasn't turned over every recovery stone. I assume the recovery treatment she's had is, put crudely, based on punishment. A 12-step recovery programme doesn't focus on punishment - consequences, certainly; responsibility, ditto. The 'brutal' I mentioned that characterises eg AA is a brutal, unflinching honesty - from others who know full well all the tricks, the lies, the tactics; who battle the very same battles themselves. A 12-step recovery programme is much richer than eg a medicalised recovery programme.

I'll try to get her to open up generally over dinner next week.

I suspect she knows very well why I've suggested dinner 2 days after having seen her on Sunday. If she opens up and seems relaxed I will broach it, and we can see where we go from there. There are AA meetings a few days a week here.

CinnabarRed - thanks for your very honest post. I'm sorry you had to go through those things. You are right about the ex-husband's position. Thankfully the kids were very very little when it all happened, so they are unlikely to remember the really bad parts - however they do probably have chronic anxiety issues from the too-frequent shouting and screaming, and constant carping, from their father and his family.

It is ironic and terribly sad, that the most emotionally intelligent, mature, stable, open and loving person in their lives is also the one around whom all the problems revolve. Because she's stable and open in all ways except around alcohol.