Does anyone actually back the government these days?

(106 Posts)
GossipWitch Tue 06-Nov-12 22:22:49

Every day I'm reading something negative about the government whether its sanctions, fucked up benefits, dla being cut, nhs suffering, the economy, schools, child benefit cuts, redundancies, and now peado's in the ranks. I'm betting people wish they hadn't rage voted now, but I'm just curious to see if there are actually people who still like their policies?

Brycie Wed 21-Nov-12 13:02:37

I'm with flatpack. And on the double dip recession, Labour were in on the first dip. Lest we forget.

Brycie Wed 21-Nov-12 13:04:13

"The state of the UK is entirely down to the bungling incompetence and nasty ideology of Tory scum. "

Good golly gosh. Er not really. Did Labour not do anything in 13 years then? Can't have been a very effective administration.

Brycie Wed 21-Nov-12 13:04:35

"nasty ideology of the Tory scum"

arf

Brycie Wed 21-Nov-12 13:15:11

People have short memories. "There's no money left"? Who remembers that? And Labour's acknowledgment that they'd be cutting almost as much if they were in power?

ttosca Wed 21-Nov-12 13:46:24

So, presumably, everything was rosy on the eve of the last election then?

We were in the middle of a financial crisis on the eve of the last election.

As much as you'd like to rewrite the narrative, the financial crisis is global in scope, and was caused by the giant pyramid scheme and gambling of the financial sector. It wasn't caused by fiscal overspending, and even countries with a fiscal surplus have been hit hard by the crisis.

What has happened since is that the UK has been dragged in to a double-dip recession, caused by counter-Keynesian public spending cuts during a recession, causing a downward spiral of job losses, low consumer spending, increasing welfare bill, and loss of tax receipts from companies.

ttosca Wed 21-Nov-12 13:47:33

"nasty ideology of the Tory scum"

arf

There's no 'arf' about it. The public spending cuts and fiscal management we're seeing are ideological in nature, and are harming the economy.

ttosca Wed 21-Nov-12 13:52:25

"The state of the UK is entirely down to the bungling incompetence and nasty ideology of Tory scum. "

Good golly gosh. Er not really. Did Labour not do anything in 13 years then? Can't have been a very effective administration.

It is the financial crisis which caused the global recession, not public overspending. New Labour can be blamed insofar as they continued the neo-liberal agenda of the Tories and deregulated the financial sector. In that, they are most certainly to blame.

Since the nasty party came to power, they have done everything possible to exploit the financial crisis as an opportunity to implement an ideological small-state agenda. In reality, this means savage public sector spending cuts, which are actively harming the economy and prolonging the recession/depression. If they continue along these lines, we may be in for a triple-dip recession.

MrJudgeyPants Wed 21-Nov-12 15:04:58

What have the Tories actually cut that is likely to cause a triple dip recession? Where are these 'savage spending cuts'? I'm sorry but I simply don't believe your rhetoric.

The only solution from Labour and the left seems to be to piss more borrowed money up the wall until we end up like Spain or Greece (unable to pay our creditors back) something which, without any evidence whatsoever, we are told could never happen here.

ttosca Wed 21-Nov-12 17:19:30

How exactly would not cutting spending during a recession mean 'pissing more borrowed money up the wall'?

You're still confused about what caused this crisis, aren't you? This isn't a public spending crisis. It's a recession caused by finance. In other words, the recession (caused by the financial crisis) has drastically reduced the government's tax receipts.

As I've shown 'nice'guy 1000 times before, along with yourself, prior to the crisis both the UKs debt and deficit were at historical low points. The total debt, as percentage of GDP, has remained (as a rough average) the same for about two decades, after a long century of steady decline.

We haven't been accumulating more and more debt. This is a right-wing fantasy.

--

The UK national debt is the total amount of money the British government owes to the private sector and other purchasers of UK gilts.

Public sector net debt was £1,068 billion at the end of October 2012, equivalent to 67.9% of GDP
Source: Office National Statistics publications[1] (page updated Nov 21st 2012)

Annual Borrowing

Public sector net borrowing (PSNB – annual deficit) was £121.6 billion for 2011/12 or 11.% of GDP.
The OBR forecast for 2012/13 is £120 billion. (this forecast is liable to overshoot by £6bn)
Public sector net borrowing was £8.6 billion in October 2012; this is £2.7 billion higher net borrowing than in October 2011, when net borrowing was £5.9 billion

If all financial sector intervention is included (e.g. Royal Bank of Scotland, Lloyds), the Net debt was £2311.6 billion (147.3 per cent of GDP. This is known as the unadjusted measure of public sector net debt.

Graph Showing UK National Debt

UK national debt

After a period of financial restraint, National debt at a % of GDP fell to 29% of GDP by 2002. Then, national debt as a % of GDP increased from 30% in 2002 to 37 % in 2007. This was despite the long period of economic expansion; it was primarily due to the government’s decision to increase spending on health and education. There has also been a marked rise in social security spending.

Since 2008, National Debt has increased sharply because of:

Economics recession (lower tax receipts, higher spending on unemployment benefits) The recession particularly hit stamp duty (falling house prices) income tax and lower corporation tax.
These cyclical factors have exposed an underlying structural deficit
Financial bailout of Northern Rock, RBS, Lloyds and other banks.

Comparison With Other Countries

Although 62% of GDP is a lot, it is worth bearing in mind that other countries have a much bigger problem. Japan for example has a National debt of 194%, Italy is over 100%. The US national debt is close to 75% of GDP. [See other countries Debt]. Also the UK has had much higher national debt in the past, e.g. in the late 1940s, UK debt was over 180% of GDP. Nevertheless, there are reasons why the UK couldn’t borrow the same sums that we did post-war.

www.economicshelp.org/blog/334/uk-economy/uk-national-debt/

ttosca Wed 21-Nov-12 17:22:25

What have the Tories actually cut that is likely to cause a triple dip recession? Where are these 'savage spending cuts'? I'm sorry but I simply don't believe your rhetoric.

What rhetoric? It's the government stated aims to cut public spending - and that's exactly what they're doing. They're going to reduce NHS spending by £20 Billion by 2015!

Housing:

Total cut: £5.8bn

^The social housing budget will be slashed by £4bn in 2011-14, and last June's emergency budget announced a £1.8bn cut in housing benefit.
Redundancies: 200,000^

Job losses so far include Sunderland housing provider Gentoo, axing 275 of its 1,800 staff; 1,400 jobs after the collapse of Leeds-based housing maintenance firm Connaught last year; and 100 of the 600-strong workforce at Knowsley Housing Trust.

Much more here:

www.guardian.co.uk/society/series/public-sector-cuts-so-far

Brycie Wed 21-Nov-12 17:30:26

Tosca, you do realise that Labour have acknowledged they would have to cut hard and deep?

You do realise that do you?

stephrick Wed 21-Nov-12 17:39:39

I Voted lib dem, ok not government but damm dissappointed, tuition fees, need I say more, oh es I do EMA, and something need to be done with education, My DS 14 said his chemistry can't teach, she knows it all but doesn't teach it !!!! I think I will have to complain, DS wants to follow biochemistry as a career. sorry for getting off topic.

ttosca Wed 21-Nov-12 17:40:23

Brycie-

You do realise that I'm not here to support Labour?

Both Labour and the Tory scum are neo-liberal parties. It's just a matter of choosing the lesser of the two evils.

Historically, Labour has been supported and funded by Unions and have enacted legislation which has helped the working class. The Tories, on the other hand, have always been the party of the landed wealthy class.

If it is a choice between voting Labour or Tory scum, of course people should vote Labour, and try to drag them back to serving the public, rather than a rich cabal of elite who are accumulating an ever increasing share of the nations wealth.

Fundamentally, though, the entire political and economic system needs to change. We are really heading towards a cliff, and the two parties are doing nothing to change direction.

CogitoErgoSometimes Wed 21-Nov-12 17:57:39

So go on then... and if you could do it in a couple of paragraphs of your own words rather than your usual lazy screeds of copy/past text and repetitive references to 'scum' I'm sure we'd all be grateful.... if you could wave a wand and change the entire political and economic system, how would it look?

poozlepants Wed 21-Nov-12 18:05:07

Presumably those who were paying 50% tax are now happy as pigs in shit.

Brycie Wed 21-Nov-12 18:32:44

Nearly as happy as they were under Labour paying 40 per cent. But not quite as happy I guess.

cinnamonnut Wed 21-Nov-12 22:34:35

I can't help but laugh every time I see tories described as 'scum' etc. Hardly going to do you any favours, name-calling like a 9 year old.

MrJudgeyPants Wed 21-Nov-12 22:42:37

Exactly... "aims to cut public spending"... "will be slashed". It's just rhetoric. Back in the real world this is happening.

But, like a typical socialist, you just carry on ignoring basic economics. Sooner or later though you won't be able to ignore the effects of ignoring basic economics.

Outside the public sector the private sector is mounting a slow recovery with unemployment falling, new start up businesses being created at an impressive rate and the shoots of recovery starting to spring up. It's all very fragile at the moment and that is why it is the right time for the government to get its spending under control and encourage the private sector with a reduction in the tax burden.

MrJudgeyPants Wed 21-Nov-12 22:44:41

cinnamonnut what I really think of dumb-assed and bone-headed socialists is unprintable on a public forum!

ttosca Wed 21-Nov-12 23:38:31

Exactly... "aims to cut public spending"... "will be slashed". It's just rhetoric. Back in the real world this is happening.

Oh. My. God. Did you even read the article?

You really don't get it, do you? Even though I explained it so many times. Of course that is happening. Exactly like I said, tax receipts are falling because we're in the middle of a recession. That's why borrowing has gone up.

But, like a typical socialist, you just carry on ignoring basic economics. Sooner or later though you won't be able to ignore the effects of ignoring basic economics.

This is a pretty remarkable thing to say. You obviously can't grasp the basic principles of how an economy is run. The deficit, i.e. borrowing, CAN increase even though expenditure on public services diminishes. This can happen when tax receipts and other government revenue decreases.

And in fact, this is exactly what has been happening.

I've tried to explain this a million times. I don't know how I explain it any more simply or basically.

ttosca Wed 21-Nov-12 23:47:12

What is it you're looking for, Cogito? A blue print for the entire future economy of the planet?

CogitoErgoSometimes Thu 22-Nov-12 07:24:14

Just your opinion. You're very scathing of anything anyone appears to be doing, very free with the insults, lob in phrases like 'the entire political and economic system needs to change', copy/paste enormous passages of other people's articles.... and yet you seem quite reluctant to set out how you think things should operate. As I said earlier, would rather avoid great long boring dissertations and endless links to websites etc., just a sentence or two of your own words would do the trick.

MiniTheMinx Thu 22-Nov-12 10:28:06

If they raise taxes and make further cuts to government spending it will be the final nail.......well done ozzy.

I have been giving the fact that some people are blinkered to the effects of neo-liberalism. It isn't just an economic theory or the freedom of the markets. It's very much about human dignity and personal choice.

What is so effective about neo-liberalism is the way in which the free marketeers, in pursuit of their own class interests have been able to tap into the common human psyche of the people.

Neo-liberalism seems have taken hold of good sense because people have tied ideas of personal freedom into it. Free markets has become synonymous with free people.

When America invaded Iraq Bush declared that "the greatest power on earth had a responsibility to export freedom" ignoring the fact that "personal" freedom is incompatible with the use of force and that the neo-liberalisation of people and markets could only be achieved down the barrel of a gun. So our quest for personal freedom has been subject to greater not lesser state aggression and authoritarianism. Quite at odds with personal freedom.

So effective has been the project that came out of America and the universities where the likes of Friedman taught, that people are literally blind to the realities.

Even when confronted with incontrovertible proof that free markets are robbing people of freedom from poverty or hunger and access to health and education they simply can't believe that some freedoms are worth more than other freedoms.

poozlepants Thu 22-Nov-12 11:34:12

Brycie What the last Labour government did is irrelevent to me. I am not a Labour supporter. I didn't vote for the last Labour governments. It doesn't make me any less disgusted at a tax cut for the richest at a time when everyone else is being squeezed hard.

Brycie Thu 22-Nov-12 12:27:58

Poozlepants - fair enough. It was 40 top rate for most of the last government that's all. It's still a higher rate than it was under Labour.

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