God gave my friend's DH a heart attack

(94 Posts)
TotallyBS Sat 02-Feb-13 21:01:46

My friend's DP works in the. City. Up to 2 years ago he would regularly work to midnight. Come the weekend. he would be so tired that he often slept the weekend away.

Then he had a. heart attack .(he is early 40s). It was a wake-up call for him.He cut back on the hours. His children now get to see him in the evenings. Instead of saving his (generous) bonus and salary he now spends it. They recently moved to a new house and bought a new car.

I was invited over to see the new house last week. Over coffee she was telling me how great life was now. She and the kids get to see him more. He is less preoccupied with work and money. She attributes all this to God giving DH a heart attack so that he would stop and revaluate his life.

Not being a believer I obviously thought WTF at the idea of. a caring God intervening in such a violent manner. Are there any Christians out there who supports my friend's perspective or do you share my WTF?

Frankly I find it hard to understand how my friend can believe that God let millions die because He gave us free will but will intervene in her marriage.

abbeynationall Sun 03-Feb-13 21:43:16

technodad, why are we quick to cry God when things go wrong yet when things are right no one mentions God?
Take OP as an example why was it not God that enabled the man to succeed have a good job in the city ,lovely family , big house and happiness? Why is it that his name come under attack when stroke comes to play? God is busy killing babies in developing countries really??? Why would you say something like that?

In response to your OP Totally,

When I was religious, my response would have been WTF?
Now that I'm not religious, my answer is still WTF?

But some people find comfort in cause & effect that others consider irrational and, as long as it's not harming others, leave them to it.

technodad Sun 03-Feb-13 22:28:32

Why would I say that? Erm, because if he is all powerful, so much so that he can give someone a heart attack, then he must be able to save babies from the horrible diseases he has given them.

If he doesn't choose to save them, since he supposedly created the world and the diseases that are killing them, then he, by definition, is killing them.

You can not have your cake and eat it. If he does the good things, the he also does the bad things (or refuses to intervene in these cases, which is bad). Hence, if god does exist, he is a murderer.

The reality is, god doesn't exist anywhere other than in the minds of people. Random things happen to people continually. Some people are fortunate, others less so.

abbeynationall Sun 03-Feb-13 22:56:24

If you do not believe in the existence of a God, why are you pinning problems on him - him killing babies? If he doesn't exist then surely its not his fault? And why is he suppose to come to the rescue, why is it his responsibility to put those things right? why? whats his involvement.

headinhands Sun 03-Feb-13 23:03:56

Could you watch someone dying in front of you if you knew you could do something? If you let them die doesn't it throw doubt on your friends claims that you're a super great guy who loves everyone? If he can't act then he isn't powerful and the claims of the bible are false. If he can act but chooses not to he needs intensive psychotherapy and should be locked up.

expatinscotland Sun 03-Feb-13 23:04:14

His involvement is nill, abbey, because he doesn't exist. What we perceive as good and bad are random occurrences in the universe. They just happen. There's nothing divine involved in anything because it is a construct of human imagination.

expatinscotland Sun 03-Feb-13 23:08:24

'Could you watch someone dying in front of you if you knew you could do something? If you let them die doesn't it throw doubt on your friends claims that you're a super great guy who loves everyone? If he can't act then he isn't powerful and the claims of the bible are false. If he can act but chooses not to he needs intensive psychotherapy and should be locked up.'

Exactly! Supposedly loves you better than a mother and we're all his children? Well, that is inherent bullshit because there is not a mother around who would ever visit the pain that is visited on so many. Not if they could stop it.

And as for 'the free will of man' there seem to be plenty of times in the Bible when God quashes that, too.

It's a myth made up to comfort people and explain things that can't be explained yet.

abbeynationall Sun 03-Feb-13 23:46:55

Headinhands - who's this person doing the watching , and why do we want him to act now?? is it because action and consequence at this point becomes abit unsatisfactory? otherwise why are we putting much thought into it, you know, I touched fire , I got burnt . Why have we stopped to ask why it happened?

Here's a wild thought, What if this person (the one we're watching dying) wants to die? you know, the choices he made. Should he force himself on humanity?

Expat, No we are not all his children, sorry to dissapoint. We are all his creation but become under his law when we choose voluntarily to be under it. That's why you can freely say he doesn't exist, he's a myth with ease. He gave everyone their sovereignity to do as they please and believe in whatever they choose. He doesn't infringe on our freedom thats' why you can't expect him to pop in and rescue when in a spot of bother.
Are you a parent Expat? Do you pick say outfits for them after a certain age? Do you make their decisions for them?

About his existence, I very much respect your opinion, its quite hard to convince anyone of something that is invisible and untangible. I personally believe in his exitence just like the way I can tell what wind is. I guess it was easy on my part because I actually read the Bible not just skim on it, and when you find that its one of the books that speak for itself then it becomes easy.

abbeynationall Sun 03-Feb-13 23:51:44

And as for 'the free will of man' there seem to be plenty of times in the Bible when God quashes that, too.

I'd be keen to know where

Abbey, you post is really confusing. I'm going to attempt to re-read it in the morning.

'God doesn't exist' is so much simpler.

abbeynationall Mon 04-Feb-13 00:04:58

smile goodnight Jammy - That's me in real life- always clarifying

abbeynationall Mon 04-Feb-13 00:08:28

oh dear just gone through it myself - I sound like am on something.
Will take the cue and also go to bed. Will try and answer any q's tomorrow

expatinscotland Mon 04-Feb-13 00:53:18

Am I a parent, abbey, yes, I am a parent to three children. One of those child is dead. She died from treatment for her leukaemia when she was just 18 days past the sham of her 9th birthday. I sat and watched her die. Thousands prayed for her life, I did, too, that was when I believed. Now I see. Her death was random. But she is no less dead.

expatinscotland Mon 04-Feb-13 00:54:59

And thank you but I've read the Bible extensively.

technodad Mon 04-Feb-13 07:23:18

Abbey

I find the idea that you think a young child "wants to die" and that god is being good by letting it happen, deeply upsetting. It is a really grotesque concept. Why do you let yourself be brainwashed by this utter nonsense?

headinhands Mon 04-Feb-13 09:39:52

Hi Abbey. When you said I personally believe in his exitence just like the way I can tell what wind is do you mean you liken god to the wind in that it's invisible but you know it's there? Problem with that logic is that the wind is easily measured and tested. We know what causes it and can predict it. We understand it. It's not a supernatural phenomenon by any means and can in no way be likened to a belief that has no way of being tested and everyone has different ideas. I do appreciate its a common metaphor amongst believers having previously used it myself but it's just a very ill thought out one.

Expat, that's so sad, so sorry that happened.

I think sometimes shit things happen and sometimes really awful things happen. If there's a silver lining, like with the man with the heart attack in the OP, then people make the most of it, but otherwise we just have to somehow deal with the grief.

If someone thinks that God made something happen, for good or bad, then they're sadly deluded.

And Abbey, I've re-read your post, it's still very confused and I can't say I agree with anything at all you have to say, especially your ideas about someone wanting to die!

headinhands Mon 04-Feb-13 10:08:55

You'd be keen to know where god overrides free will? The flood, the plagues, the elimination of the Cannanites, Amalekites etc, Soddom and Gommorah etc. What's your definition of overriding free will Abbey?

headinhands Mon 04-Feb-13 10:12:39

Headinhands - who's this person doing the watching , and why do we want him to act now?? is it because action and consequence at this point becomes abit unsatisfactory? otherwise why are we putting much thought into it, you know, I touched fire , I got burnt . Why have we stopped to ask why it happened?

Even if you could justify god not stepping in to stop someone killing themselves, or doing something that would lead to it, how could even begin to justify god not stepping in when children are concerned?

This thread reminded me of this quote last night...

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent.
Is he able, but not willing? then is he malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

headinhands Mon 04-Feb-13 10:17:13

We are all his creation but become under his law when we choose voluntarily to be under it.

So what about Christians that get killed, die of disease etc? from what I can tell bad things are happening to Christians too. Do you not think the scientific community would be very interested if it was known that the children of Christians never die?

That's why you can freely say he doesn't exist, he's a myth with ease.

Do you find it difficult to say Allah, Krishna, Zeus etc are a myth? How are you able to so easily sweep those gods aside? There's your answer.

CloudsAndTrees Mon 04-Feb-13 10:34:55

I think it's quite sad that people feel the need to question other people's faiths.

If this family want to believe that God made them suffer a heart attack so that they would be able to live better lives, where's the harm? What has it got to do with anyone else?

Nothing is the answer.

It can't be proved whether God did or didn't cause the heart attack, and as sure as night follows day, some people will always have faith in God, and some people won't.

I don't understand the need to try to convince other people of your take on religion, wherever your beliefs lie. Just be happy for people that are comfortable with their own choices, and allow those who aren't the space to come to their own conclusions.

technodad Mon 04-Feb-13 10:42:11

And great things (as well as bad things) happen to atheists too.

How can you explain the fact that good and bad things happen to religious and non religious people in equal measure.

Why does this magic god creature think I (clearly non religious) am worth giving a good life, but a religious child should die in agony after a car crash?

The only explanation is that all forms of religion are nonsense. They can give comfort to individuals (which is fine), but they are still just based upon made up stories, in order to control the masses.

headinhands Mon 04-Feb-13 10:45:28

I think it's quite sad that people feel the need to question other people's faiths.

This is a public message board. No one is obliged to take part. No one has forcibly entered someone's house and started listing the problems with their beliefs while they were sat quietly watching then TV. But if people engage in discussions then they invite questioning. FWIW I'm chuffed when people ask me questions about my lack of belief.

CloudsAndTrees Mon 04-Feb-13 10:52:16

How can you explain the fact that good and bad things happen to religious and non religious people in equal measure?

Personally, I don't believe it's about whether a person is religious or non religious or anywhere in between, I think it about a journey that a soul has to go on throughout many different lives.

I don't think God thinks you are worthy of living a good life but that a religious child that dies isn't worthy of that. I think our souls are more than just the person we are in this life, and they have things to learn that just aren't possible in one lifetime.

Clearly, you will think I'm talking absolute bollocks, and that's fine by me smile I don't believe in any organised religion, I just believe what I feel, which makes sod all difference to anyone else.

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