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Evolution and feminism

53 replies

Monkeytrousers · 23/01/2007 15:24

Following from WWW's feminist thread - a thread to discuss the complementory study of evolutionary theory and feminism, ie Darwinian feminism/gender studies.

A question to feminist academics on MN, is this idea still as unpopular within feminism as ever? If so why?

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fennel · 23/01/2007 15:34

(at risk of displaying huge ignorance of evolutionary theory here) for me it's something like:

Because we don't want to know if people find out that in evolutionary terms women are naturally suited to breed and nurture. Much of feminism has spent a lot of time trying to move thinking away from any sort of biological determinism and feminists are wary of reengaging with anything remotely close to this.

Pruni · 23/01/2007 15:52

Message withdrawn

charlieq · 23/01/2007 16:15

I'm just finishing (??! sort of) a PhD in gender studies. I haven't heard the term 'Darwinian feminism' before but it's an interesting thought!

Basically Darwin and feminism don't have many meeting points. But there are some interesting strands of thought which suggest that feminism, rather than discounting the material realities of female bodies such as pregnancy, breastfeeding, etc. needs to focus on them, and on ways in which women could experience real bodily freedom (rather than, for instance, 'degendering' themselves by avoiding the 'traps' of childbearing and breastfeeding).

That's the camp I would put myself in I suppose. Having a kid and a 7 month pregnancy certainly makes you aware of certain irreducible biological functions, and not a lot of feminism engages with that imho.

I have to say I don't know of anyone other than Lynne Segal (who was a tutor on my MA) who engages with sociobiology in a particularly positive way. Even she was very concerned to point out that what we DON'T know about, e.g., genetic coding, dominates over what we do and that therefore sociobiology is an entirely speculative, if fascinating, discipline.

charlieq · 23/01/2007 16:16

anyone= any feminist...

charlieq · 23/01/2007 16:30

MOnkeytrousers- from other thread I see you are going to do a PhD on this- tell us all about it...

mine is more Englishy/cultural studies based but is on motherhood and I'm feeling like a lone voice in the wilderness most of the time.

Must now get back to actually writing this flippin' PhD before baby pops out and it all goes to hell for months on end...

Monkeytrousers · 23/01/2007 17:25

Thank you for posting!
Here is a abridged version of my PhD proposal - I haven't started it yet, and my funding options are disappearing by the day so I'm not sure if I'm actually going to be able to do it. But I very much appreciate a chance to discuss it.

I'm at my seminar at LSE tomorrow and will be gone from dawn to well past dusk unfortunately. Also have some prep to do tonight so if I don't post in teh next 24 hours don't be offended.

"Exploring a synthesis between feminism and evolutionary psychology, known today as Darwinian Feminism, hence contributing to the intellectual reinvigoration of feminism (still a vital discourse despite its apparent unpopularity) and making it relevant to a new generation of men and women. This will be a work exploring and juxtaposing ideas and theories starting with an examination of the feminist definition of patriarchy.

From this perspective, patriarchy is broadly held to be a system that sprang whole from the mind of Man as a means to oppress women. I will explore its emergence from an evolutionary perspective, hypothesising it as an evolved arena for male intrasexual competition; this going some way to explain why women (on average) have historically been found at a disadvantage within it ? especially when they have children.

Emerging from a preliminary examination of ?feminisms?, this will necessarily have to begin with an impartial and thorough representation of a consolidated feminist position regarding the meaning of patriarchy.

A few possible points of focus to be explored:

A Primarily, the idea that patriarchy was consciously developed and exists purely to oppress women ? from an evolutionary perspective, this is not tenable. If patriarchy, like everything else, evolved over time, the war of attrition between feminism and patriarchy may be something of a blind alley. This is not to say that women do not suffer discrimination within traditional patriarchal systems, but that the reasons for this discrimination are more complex than previously deduced from the premise that patriarchy is fuelled by systemic misogyny.

Some secondary issues encompassing:

B the idea that the battle of the sexes predominates over the cooperation of the sexes.
C Masculinity as pathology
D the seeming paradox that females are not competitive; yet where it is accepted they are, maintain that it is no more or less malign than male competitiveness (re the misogynous myth of female innate duplicity + explore the possible evolutionary origins of this myth in areas of illumination via evolutionary theory such as concealed ovulation and male paternity anxieties)
E issues not of gender inferiority, but of gender preference, as a possible explanation of specific workplace disparities (pre and post-partum).
F Battles for resources between parents in the home. In relation to a disparate societal system that effectively pits mothers and fathers (especially on low and lower middle incomes) against one another in issues such as childcare and positive work/life balance and at best offers strained compromises rather than positive choices. Much of current political rhetoric examines proximate causes of family breakdown ? an evolutionary approach allows for an examination of possible ultimate explanations embedded within cultural and societal structures.

The points above are a few examples of what I hope gets to the heart of two aspects of feminism which I have personally found at odds; those of feminist ?consciousness? and feminist ?ideology?, at times a confusing dichotomy which I found hindered the development of my own feminist consciousness as a younger woman. Ideas such as masculinity as the enemy, of the endless battle of the sexes, etc; these are foci which obviously polarise debate, and are also ideas that have seeped into popular consciousness via endless dissemination in our culture. I feel that while feminism is far from being redundant, as is often mooted in the media, this focus has too often predominated within feminisms ideological parameters, which has hindered its development and rendered it irrelevant for a new generation of women , even though a survey this year revealed that women?s earnings still languished almost 20% behind men?s, a full 30 years after the Sex Discrimination Act. I have found that applying a synthesis between feminism and evolutionary theory has been very illuminating in understanding why, in spite of female intellectual parity being unequivocally proven, these statistics still apply today.

There is however a lot of resistance within feminism and the social sciences to the use of evolutionary frameworks. Much of this I have discovered is based on fallacious argument, fuzzy logic and, at times, plain bad will. The reasons for the feminist stand off are understandable however, but are based mostly on a misunderstanding and/or wilful misrepresentation of evolutionary theory and fears of a slippery slope. While this is understandable, it is not intellectually tenable, not if anyone would wish feminism a future as a respected and vital discourse and one that positively contributes to society in a real sense.

The slippery slope is however unfortunately demonstrated in some societies. All feminists know that, in many cultures, female self-determination and freedom of movement can, and often does, become one of the first casualties of such debates put into action, and certainly if women are not allowed equality in the debating process. This is an important observation and should always be acknowledged.

Contry to many expectations however, evolutionary theory very often scientifically backs up what feminists have instinctively suspected for centuries, such as the tendency for patriarchal oppression when it comes to men coveting a woman's fertility, anxieties over paternity surety, and the tendency of these insecurities to become manifest in social policy. Evolutionary theory then provides proximate and ultimate explanations for these phenomena, helping us understand and introduce corrective measures. What it does not do, as is often claimed, is condone immoral or amoral behaviour. Humans are highly evolved and profoundly moral animals and this fact is central to evolutionary theory.

But one thing we can be sure about is that in the future these debates will always focus on human nature and, as such, feminists and social scientists need to equip themselves with the tools to recognise the real science from the pseudo science that informs discrimination and allows discriminative policies to proliferate ? not ignore it and hope it will go away. Men and women are not evolved from different planets and evolutionary theory and the science of human nature is not going to go away. A failure for feminism to engage with it on a real intellectual level will only leave feminism floundering and I believe that will have moral implications for women, their children and their men folk all over the world.

The amalgamation of Darwinian theory into the social sciences is inevitable. In the words of Dr Helena Cronin at LSE, ?All the social sciences, humanities and indeed policy-making rely on theories of human nature. These theories are generally tacit and almost invariably wrong. The only scientific way to understand human nature is a Darwinian way.?

In my post graduate PhD study, I would like to thoroughly explore this neglected middle ground, not with the intention of discrediting feminism, but of vigorously exploring the instinctive questions my own feminist consciousness posits, with robust thinking free from the fetters of ideology and in the process contributing to the to the continued relevance of feminism and gender studies in the 21st century.

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Monkeytrousers · 23/01/2007 17:25

OMG, that was a monster - sorry.

LOL Pruni - what is the 'sneaky fucker' theory??

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fennel · 23/01/2007 17:50

Quite a lot to take in there. I would more or less agree with your point A (except I think it's a bit simplistic to present the feminist definition of patriarchy, there must be loads of competing definitions). But on say the other points, take the gender pay gap, are you arguing that it has barely narrowed in the last 30 years because of biological/evoluntionary factors? (rather than, say, because of systematic devaluing of women's work or because of pressure to take on gendered career and caring paths?)

charlieq · 23/01/2007 18:16

This is fascinating. If I weren't so knackered (due to biological horrors of being pg- and they say it doesn't hold women back...) I could probably comment better on it, but would like to know, which sociobiological theorists/schools of thought will you be focusing on and are there any existing feminist thinkers that you'll be interrogating/building upon? (for instance I have just remembered the only one I can think of, an anthropologist called Sarah Blaffer Hrdy who I think did stuff on primate females- there are also quite a few people doing stuff on genetic determinism). Funding bodies like that kind of thing (I think- but then I applied to the Arts and Humanities Council for a mostly literary project.)

Are you applying to the Wellcome Trust btw?

Pruni · 23/01/2007 19:43

Message withdrawn

Pruni · 23/01/2007 19:49

Message withdrawn

Jimjams2 · 23/01/2007 20:08

yes the sneaky rutter methods is quite common amongst animals (hence the evolution of mucus plugs etc- but really you need to consider sperm competition as well if you go down that line).

Something I don;t quite get though is this: "why women (on average) have historically been found at a disadvantage within it" Is that true in a Darwinian sense? I can see it mihgt be in a modern psychological sense, but not sure about a Darwinian sense. From a Darwinian view a system will evolve because it results in more offspring. That's it. Nothing more. The male wants more offspring, (so he puts down his woman I guess, tries to ensure monogamy, whilst himself perhaps being a sneaky rutter elsewhere) the woman wants more offspring so could take the protection of a man in exchange for some opression (whilst accepting sneaky rutters assuming the risk of getting away with it is high). Have you read things like Matt Ridley, Dawkins (obviously), John Maynard Smith etc. If you're going to account for the evolution of social systems do you have to account for it in a reductionist way (ie considering it in a selfish gene type way- I would have thought so in the current atmosphere iykiwm). Would you get any further udnerstanding from game theory maybe? . It gets very mathematical though.

I must admit I know nothing about feminism (was an evolutionary biologist of sorts many years ago).

Jimjams2 · 23/01/2007 20:08

risk/chance high/low- mixed the 2 but you know what I mean!

Monkeytrousers · 23/01/2007 20:26

Fennel - "take the gender pay gap, are you arguing that it has barely narrowed in the last 30 years because of biological/evolutionary factors? (rather than, say, because of systematic devaluing of women's work or because of pressure to take on gendered career and caring paths?) "

Science tells us that there are no justification for paying a women less than a man for doing the same job. Not in a fair, ethical society. Our current system of economics and western capitalism, as I posit, evolved from a system if intra sexual competition between males, puts women who have children at a disadvantage within it. So what I am effectively saying is that the system does unfairly discriminate against women today, who have many more life choices (mainly via the power to control their own fertility) and avenues of intellectual stimulation. In our history, women have been to all intents and purposes slaves to their biology; those were the days of biological determined lives, certainly. For women in the west, this isn't the case; the thing that effectively limits them, and the system, is an archaic (nay ancient) economic and labour system that is still tilted towards getting the best (or most work) out of men. When woman (most women) have a baby in this system they are all but rendered disabled. The system is stagnant, but may be running its course towards it?s own (and our) destruction. A stake ownership model less of a zero sum game and free markets which consume until noting is left.

Disparities within workforces have less to do with female inferiorities that with the fact that women simply choose not to go into some male industries ? simply because they would prefer to do something else. For example, women excel at science at school yet many don?t convert this into a scientific career. It is observed that this isn?t because of inability or even discrimination ? but the fact that they choose otherwise?I?m labouring the point a bit too much here but evolutionary theory, looking at human nature and gender difference can correctly identify that this is the cause and so rubbish any sexist claims that it?s just that women can?t stand the cut and thrust, and those that can are just as good as their male colleagues and therefore, from a scientific perspective, deserve EQUAL pay.

Charlie, haven?t applied to the Welcome Trust as I didn?t get a 1st which you need I think. Was battling PND and a crap partner. I?m not from a science background either.

Far too many people to list but I suppose I?m coming from the adaptationist?s side, ie Dawkins not Gould if that makes sense?

Sarah Blaffer Hrdy wrote a great book called mothernature

Pruni, I think it is an observed mating strategy in some species, some more specialised at it than others. Did you also know though that some species of fly and (I forget now) but a few other species have a special rape-specific adaptation which is only used to hold the female down when wooing will not suffice?

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Monkeytrousers · 23/01/2007 20:35

Jimjams2

Oh, it?s a while since I?ve dons sperm competition, Fascinating stuff. I?m not a biologist though so go easy on me

"Something I don?t quite get though is this: "why women (on average) have historically been found at a disadvantage within it"

I do mean modern women ? us basically. Trying to be mothers and also have choices. In our evolutionary history it wouldn?t have passed through anyone?s mind to want something else, and if it did and they went down that path, they will be no one?s ancestors now.

Yes re the people you mentioned, also Tooby and Cosmides and axlerod ? try my best with game theory, not a mathematician either though ? but the point of the PhD is about working out if the humanities can work with working reductionist model without reducing it to pseudoscience.

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Monkeytrousers · 23/01/2007 20:37

and Helena Cronin - my seminar tutor - who else!

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Aloha · 23/01/2007 20:37

There have been huge - MASSIVE - changes in teh relationship between the sexes in modern industrialised countries in very recent history. I think the availability of good contraception controlled by women (ie Pill) has a lot to do with it.

Jimjams2 · 23/01/2007 20:39

How is the system running its course towards our destruction? ( I can see "its". not sure about 'ours)"

It's certainly interesting. What is the alternative to the system though in Biological terms? More shared care? More institutional care? Will that have an effect on the fitness (in an evolutionary sense) of the offspring? If so how will that affect systems that evolve?

Monkeytrousers · 23/01/2007 20:47

Haha JJ?s, well that's just my opinion on rampant consumerism/heavy industry - wouldn't posit that in class The 'ours' being the environmental cost which will be ours (ie human's as well as other species of course) to suffer, if predictions are true, not so far in the future.

I don't know about alternative systems, my job will be just to hopefully get cleverer people interested and come up with some. I'm a woman who knows her limits

Cultural evolution has a much higher transmission rate than organic evolution of course - trouble is it needs to be around for a massive amount of time to make a dent in our true evolutionary history and (back to opinion here) I'm not sure we will be around that long.

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Jimjams2 · 23/01/2007 20:52

Hmm well you could read Richard Lathe- Autism the brain and the environment. He recounts the "caged canary" theory of autism- that the rise in autism is the "early warning system" of massive environmental damage. That would be neat as it related directly back to breeding success/fitness.

It does sound interesting!

Monkeytrousers · 23/01/2007 20:56

I haven't heard of him. Is he of the Baron-Cohen school?

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Monkeytrousers · 23/01/2007 21:01

And safe, easily accessible early abortion Aloha.

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Jimjams2 · 23/01/2007 21:07

No not really Baron-Cohen (personally I believe that Baron-Cohen explains AS well, less so ASD). His book does lay out his theory but its real use is in rounding up everyone else;s work on the the Biology/physiology of autism. The basic idea is that you have a group who are extraordinarily sensitive to environmental toxins. But if we continue to produce massiive amounts of toxins it will affect more and more people.

TBH it's kind of the theory we reached following ds1 (before this book was published) and our "strategy" with ds2 and ds3 was to avoid as many potential triggers as possible. So far neither show any signs at all, although if you test ds3's "physiology" he comes back as exactly the same as ds1. He just hasn;t been exposed to the things ds1 has.

It fits your self destruction bit quite nicely, because the rise has been so great and so quick (and Lathe goes into why he believes it isn't all diagnostic- although that's difficult to investigate accurately).

lionheart · 23/01/2007 21:21

lol at Pruni's 'sneaky fucker theory' but have to agree with fennel,
that the particular definition of patriarchy you suggest here needs to be scrutinised.

DominiConnor · 23/01/2007 21:22

From an evolutionary perspective plants have spent the last billion years trying to screw up us bloody animals when we eat them.
"Sea sickness" seems to be an evolved over reaction to poisoning from the alkaloids found in most leaves, which has early symptoms of dizziness.
A small number of fruits happen to be edible, but wander through a forest snacking on random berries and you'll be dead within a few hours.
Every root vegetable contains a witches brew of toxins that our bodies handle with variable success.
Animals contain fewer toxins, but unless you eat them fresh, thoroughly cleaned and cooked you might be quite surprised at how quickly toxins from bacteria build up.
There's good reason why cheese gives you nightmares. A large % of humanity can't eat dairy products at all without being very ill.

If we're talking "toxins", we need to be careful, not to believe that "natural" equals good. It does not.

The "toxins" argument has a big problem with well known environmental screwups. They don't impact life expectancy anything like as much as the Greens would have you believe.
Take Hiroshima.
Hundreds of thousands people have lived there inthe aftermath of a rather dirty (by today's standards) nuclear detonation. Industrial and car pollution is also truly grim and has been so for a long time.
Yet on average they have the same life expectancy as Brits, and rather better than the Scottish subset of us. Japan is pretty much the most polluted industrial country. It also has very good life expectancy.