No wonder the owner of this place became very ill.

Who wouldn't with worries like that hanging over their head?

then you get the children who dont do the full 12.5 hours some do 7 or 10 for example so the payment is less but you still need the same staff.

The numbers don't add up though, do they? I mean you must be able to see that.

If, for example, your nursery takes 24 funded 3 and 4 year olds, it brings in 24 x £484.92 = £11638.08 per term. There are 3 terms per year. So the total income per year is £11638.08 x 3 = £34914.24.

BUT, 24 children require a minimum of 3 staff, of whom 2 must be qualified, 1 ideally with EYPS (equivalent to Qualified Teacher Status at a going rate of £24 grand plus per year for full time). On average, those 3 staff would cost £9000 (for the unqualified) + £11000 (for the NVQ 2 or 3) + £14000 (for the EYPS) = £34000.

Factor in rent at an average cost (in London) of £20000 per annum, and then rates, utilities, etc, and the nursery is running at a loss of about £30000 per annum.

Think about that before you go putting in an official complaint about the nursery owner, potentially ruining someone's life.

Our preschool charges 8 pounds 50 if you can't do mums help which is doubled if you let them down at short notice. They say this is to cover additional help if you can't do it. Also they say they would have to increase the charges if we didn't have that fee.

Is this legal?...

I remember asking my nursery this and discovered the free session is embedded in the am or pm session. I has wanted run 2 free sessions back to back to constitute a morning or afternoon. However I was told by law you have to have a break in between so can't do this. Reality is if you want wraparound care which is outwith the free sessions nurseries have to make a profit and they charge extra. My nursery don't offer option of 2 1/2 hours only so it's not really free at all. They also insisted you attend for minimum 3 sessions to maximise profit. It's a business first and foremost.

In my area private nurseries charge top up fees of typically £1000+ per term for a three hour morning place 5 days a week. This is on top of the nursery grant (i.e. total fees are £1,500+ per term). The reality is that nurseries cannot survive on the amount of the government grant - well not in London anyway and probably not in many of the more expensive parts of the UK. However, parents want to take advantage of the reduction in fees provided by the nursery grant so it has become the norm to charge a ridiculous amount of money for the extra half hour per day on top of the 'free' 2.5 hour session. The real problem seems to be that the amount of the grant is completely unrealistic. If nurseries were forced to provide a free 2.5 hour place and not charge top up fees many would have to close. After all, why should the nursery owners operate at a loss? And if many of them close there would not be anywhere near enough pre-school nurseries places available. That is probably why local councils have not forced nurseries to stop this practice.

So, personally I wouldn't force the issue because I doubt the nursery can afford to back down on the charge since everyone else will also want a refund!

yes i do fully understand all that you're saying and can see it from both sides, my sister works at a nursery as does my step mother and both have openly addmitted that they know that the nursery shouldnt be doing things they way they are but know thats its out of desperation to find funding.
This is exactly why i have written to my councillors and local MP. Because the nursery should have addressed this situation sooner and spoken to the council regarding funding, they have not and as a result so many parents are out of pocket and worse sum children are completely missing out on valuable nursery experience because parents cant afford the top ups!
The nurseries i have had problems with are all registered with my local government as being fully funded to accomodate 3-4 year olds on their free child places.
the problems seemt arise from two things.
A) the nurseries seem intent to run longer and longer sessions, 6 hours a day i was told by one nursery, starting at 8 am!
firstly this makes the funded amount of 12.5 hours in sessions of 2 hours a day impossible and secondly i dont want my children there for their breakfast and wud quite like the option to take them a little later.
B) they simply dont have the funding they need for the amount of things they intend to do yet have done nothing to raise the issue and as such we the parents are suffering.
I am happy to donate to my nursery, and have already in the past given toys and clothing. i would happily pay for trips and help to fund any new equiptment the require
what i object to is being informed that i MUST pay a massive amount of £51 a week when all i want to do is give my child a valuable experience, one which according to my government he is clearly entitled to for FREE!
its not much to ask as far as i can see but yes it requires the co operation of both the government and the nurseries working toegther to uphold the rights that have been put in place.
i hope that others out there feel the same as i do and are prepared for our childrens sakes to fight for their right to a great start in the educational system,

I think the real problem is that the funding provided does not really cover the true costs of running the sessions. I used to help out with the accounts for a not for profit pre school that was run by a committee of parents and held in a local community centre. The key workers were paid barely over the minimum wage (I did the payroll), the rent for the hall was exceptionally cheap and toys etc were borrowed from the toy library, donated or acquired from car boot sales and the committee who did all the admin were all volunteers doing it for no pay. The pre school took children from 2.5 and only charged for those children not in receipt of the full funding from the term after their 3rd birthday. Despite the fact that it was at full capacity in terms of child to carer ratio it was extremely difficult to make the numbers work and this was for an organisation not trying to run it as a business. We regularly ran fundraising days so that we would have some extra cash to invest in equipment for the children as the funds received from the local authority barely covered wages and rent let alone consumables like paints, paper etc.

We are all entitled to free childcare but that does not mean to say that it is out there. Councils have abdicated their responsibilty to provide free childcare to private sector providers.

Government guidlines state that all children aged 3-4 ARE entitled to free childcare up to the amount of 12.5 hours per week. If a nursery is listed with the local council as having the available 3-4 sessions this means that they recieve a govenment fund in order to maintain this service.
THis entitlement comes into effect from the start of the term after the childs third birthday. They are not allowed to charge these so called top up fees and are required to work with the parent so that the sessions are most suitable for the individual child and parent. Most nurseries run 5 - 6 hour sessions, so in theory ur child should be able to do 2 full sessions without going over their free entitlement.
I recently wrote to my local councillers regarding the matter after being disgusted with the way my local nursery tried to inforce these charges on me. they claimed that this was the only way they could do it, that i would have to HAVE TO attend my child for a minumum of 2 and a half days, thats 15 hours a week and that this would somehow work out at a whopping £51 a WEEK, £51 puns for the pleasure of an exrta half a day session!!!
Unfortunatley even though this is a govenment enforced allowance there appears to be no monitoring in place whatsoever, unlike school nurseries which are governer run nurseries seem to run themselves and seem determind to milk as much money out of parents as they can by making the rules up to suit them best.
Nothing is going to happen unless we all take action against this. I would urge you all to contact your local Mp's and councillers highlighting the situation which is continuing to harm the chances of some of the less well off families who without their free entitlement simply cannot afford the childcare that all children deserve and are by law entitled to!!!
If you all shout at once it will be heard!

When it says that you cant charge a top up it means for the 2 1/2 hour session.

So say it is free but worth approx £8.25 to the nursery. if they cannot afford to run at that price they might charge a top up to £9 ie £1.25 for you to pay for eg so they can meet their overheads. This is what they are not supposed to do.