Mumsnet Talk

My partner is French Jewish and I am English-Anglican; we are non-believers both, but both steeped in our respective values.

We can sort out (pretty well) the differences between French and English (upper/middle-class) values but find it much more difficult to distinguish between the Anglican and Jewish values.

Can anyone help? I am very interested, and very ignorant...

well, maybe start by working out what your values are?

I have no idea really, I am an atheist of uncertain stock (though there appears to be an underlying jewishness which is dying out).

Why are you interested? Surely as non-believers your values have come from sources other than your families' faiths?

Jewish values - well very big on family and tradition

lots of emphasis on ritual IMO and IME

do you have to go to shul and stuff like that?

do you do Friday night - light candles and make a distinction for Shabbat or do you have a day of rest on a Sunday?

both are mono-theistic with emphasis on family i imagine

I think of the central Christian religious emotion as shame, and the central Jewish religious emotion as grief. However, this is about the services, more than any translation into practices at the average church fete or kaddish.

The big contrast between the two for me personally was the switch between Christianity (even Anglicanism -perhaps just any Protestantism) focusing constantly on what you are feeling, whereas in Judaism the focus was far more on what you are doing. So in Judaism, who the hell cares whether you wish you didn't have to give money etc - the good cause still benefits. In Christianity, unless you give with your heart, repent, receive the Holy Spirit etc, it's not good enough- in fact that's the point, you are not good enough and that's why Jesus had to die.

Does any of this resonate? I'm not much of a theologian.

The definitive difference between Christian and Jewish values is, as I see it, that Judaism does not treat wealth with shame. Indeed, nowhere in the bible does it say that wealth should be shameful. It is the application of wealth that is important.

Since Christian/Roman times, the Jewish faith allowed money-lending, where other faiths did not. Thus, the Jews forged ahead in the early banking industries, etc.

This shadow of history remains with the Jewish populaton today. The pogroms, which began in early medieval times, (perhaps before), occured when a King or wealthy baron owed too much to a Jewish family ... sometimes entire kingdoms were owed.

Such were the times, the Jewish money-lenders were slaughtered ... because it was far easier to do that than to pay the sum of money owed.

This mind-set/activity went on for generation to generation. The difference, anna, between the Christian and the Jew is purely a matter, (historically), of the application of money.

I doubt that much of Western Europe would have benefited without the Jewish input. But the money-lender is always vulnerable ..

That's true Desid, but I think an important difference between modern generation Jews and Christians (actually, and everyone else really), is that they identify with a culture and a race, not just a religion, but don't have any idea what that really means. Following WW2 there were one or two generations of Jews who DID NOT talk about they're Jewish history because that identity had resulted in such universal pain. Now there's a generation of Jewish children or grandchildren who have a feeling of some connection with their culture, but the pre-WW2 values and culture are missing.

However, Anna, I think your question really goes much deeper than this. You say you can identify your different values based on your class and national identity, but I really think our values get mixed up and influenced by every encounter we have in life. Still, I'd be very interested to find out what value differences you have already identified...

Just to give some background, I'm particularly interested because I'm currently writing an essay about whether television and religion reflect or teach our values, and am also doing a course on Judaism and Islam... very keen to hear back from you, and hear more comments.

That's an interesting post, pea.

Of course, times change .. and they've certainly changed very much in the last fifteen years. It would be interested to know how the modern Jew feels, subjectively and objectively, about their heritage and homeland.

Anna, I can only say, at this time of night, that a French Jew and an English Anglican sounds like a partnership made in heaven

<don't forget that your dd and my ds share the same (exact) birthday. Roll on November 9 ..>

Thank you everybody.

This is a difficult subject about which I feel hugely ignorant, as I have said.

To clarify: my partner and I are both non-believers ie we do not believe in God and pay lipservice to religious ritual (both religions). My elder stepson is doing his Bar Mitzvah this weekend, so it's a bit more heavy-duty than usual (but still as light as possible).

I know for a fact that, despite coming from three generations of agnostics, my family is totally steeped in Christian values and my parents sent me and my sister as children to a school where Christian values were taught, and practised, constantly.

I would agree entirely that blood ties and money are very important to the Jewish families I know, and that ritual and duty override feelings. In fact, I would probably say that the "emotional literacy" of the Jewish people I know is exceedingly poor (to speak in modern parlance). But that is also true of French people - their "emotional literacy" is less good than that of the English, and the French Catholic bourgeoisie is very rule-bound.

Personally I wouldn't say that my values have been influenced by every encounter I have had in life - not at all. They have been influenced by the major cultures I have experienced - environment rather than individuals have been much more influential.

I converted to Judaism before marrying my DH. The values I have noticed as being different are:

1. stronger family ties, e.g. better care of elderly relatives, much closer to what I would consider distant cousins.

2. stronger sense of history, i.e. where they come from, where they belong.

3. strong sense of continuity fostered by the annual repetition of rituals

4. strong sense of community -I think this comes from being a minority in the UK. i imagine it's different if you are a jew in New York.

Can't think of anything else.

I do find some aspects odd/ disturbing, for instance the almost blind support of Israel.

Agree with Malfoy. Also, in Judaism, there is no "turning the other cheek" as there is in Christianity - it's "an eye for an eye". Whether that goes some way towards explaining the situation in Israel towards the Palestinians, I'm not sure.

MrsSchadenfreude - that's very interesting, about the not turning the other cheek...

Also agree on deeds (Judaism) over thoughts (Christianity). Judaism also celebrates sexuality more and doesn't see it as something which brings shame as Christianity can do.

Anna, it was explained to me in some detail by a friend's husband who was an Orthodox rabbi. He was also keen on spelling out that Judaism really celebrates sex as well, and told me that it was a mitzvah to make love to his wife on Shabbat. The wife's sexual needs are taken into account in Judaism, whereas they aren't really in Christianity (no "pull my nightie down when you've finished dear").

Hmm. Will think about this.

I think the French are much more into sexuality than the English. Jews more so than Christians though? I had never thought about it. Hard to assess...

Yes, we are a repressed lot, aren't we?
Can I recommend you read "On Being Jewish" by Julia Neuberger? She brings up a lot of these issues and explains them much better than I can.

Thanks for the book recommendation - and I like Julia Neuberger

I was married to an Israeli guy for 26 years. We lived in Israel and had 3 children. He was from a Turkish background, me CofE/UK, not religious at all. Having lived their way all those years (we're now divorced and I returned to the UK)I can tell you that they are very family oriented, they have different eating habits, but this varies from background to background. My ex never cared but wouldn't really go for meat and milk products together. The Jewish religion is very vast, their culture and their approach each different according to their background. Back here in the UK, I find a lot missing peoples lives. Families get together more, food is a very important medium, creating closeness and generosity and sharing of lives, its all done over food. Old people are looked after better and more respected, children are cherished almost sacred. There are many different degrees of religion and you really have to see for yourself. I loved my life there but had to leave for many reasons. Its a rich vibrant warm generous culture and I have taken that with me, Glad of it and appreciative of it.

I am 16 years old (admittedly not a mum and so arguably should not be on this forum) and stumbled across this website to find the answer to some qualms I had with my own Anglican/ Jewish dual heritage. I hoped that I would find answers to some of my queries and thoughts but instead was shocked to find that many of these posts are borderline anti-Semitic. I felt compelled to correct these statements.

1.Choosyfloosy – What you say about a connection between Jews and Money is very offensive. I think it was irresponsible of you to make that connection when you must be aware that much anti-Semitism both today and throughout the past has derived from such a stereotype. This stereotype is also untrue – do you not know the story of the golden calve? That was about punishing the ‘children of Israel’ for worshipping material things - The reason why some Jews were, historically, moneylenders in Europe (not the rest of the world) was not because there is a belief within Judaism that specifically values money or ‘doesn’t associate it with shame’, as you put it, it is because they, as Jews, were barred from doing most other jobs by the rulers of the day. Additionally to transfer that historical trend to 21st century Jews is ridiculous. It is like transferring ideas about the barbaric acts of the crusades to modern day Christians.
2.Mrs S – What you said about ‘an eye for an eye’ and ‘turn the other cheek’ is also very misguided and insulting. For starters, did you know that Jesus borrowed many of his well know ‘loving’ phrases (such as ‘Love Thy Neighbour’) from the prophets of the Torah (such as Amos and Isaiah)? Additionally, the phrase ‘an eye for an eye’ did not originally – we are talking more than 5,000 years ago here - have the vengeful nasty meaning that many associate it with today. It is supposed to convey messages of fair justice and of the punishment fitting the crime. It is derived from a time when mothers were burnt alive for stealing food to feed their starving children. Admittedly, the phrase does condone the death penalty for murder, but it also speaks out against torture, brutality and other forms of corporal punishment, especially when used on petty criminals. Perhaps this notion should have been more widely pondered in Victorian England when children were hung for stealing loaves of bread! Therefore I conclude that the ‘eye for an eye’ notion originated as a benign, if not positive, one. Please think about those two facts next time you make sweeping implications about the ‘loving’ Christian culture vs the ‘vengeful’ Jewish one.
3.I would now like to combat the specific point made about Israel. Whilst there is large support for Israel amongst many sections of the Jewish community this by no-means universal and is not, usually, ‘blind’. I am a Jew and I wholeheartedly disagree with Israel’s actions against the Palestinian people who originally owned the land. I would also like to point out that Israel was ‘given’ to ‘the Jews’ by the British who colonised Palestine and oppressed its people for decades before the modern conflict arose and that one of the reasons why the British ‘gave up’ their colony was because they didn’t want Jewish refugees from Pogrom attacks and then the Holocaust living amongst them in large numbers. - If you don’t believe me look up what Balfour (of the Balfour Declaration) said about Jewish immigrants at the beginning of the 20th century. - I have many friends who are Muslims and I join them in participating in pro-Palestinian organisations which try to speak out against the harsh and unjust actions of the so-called ‘Israeli defence force’. Whilst my views about Israel have meant that I felt ostracised from certain sectors of the Jewish community, there are also a significant minority of Jews who think like I do and they come together in organisations such as Independent Jewish Voices. To associate the Jewish people with the actions of Israel would be as unfair as to associate all Catholics with the actions of Paedophile Priests. Please think about how much hurt you cause to people like me and my family who speak out against the oppression of the Palestinian people.

Jewish values are the same as Christian- except there's a LOT more guilt and emotional blackmail

Wow, this is an old thread, but since I've already typed a reply I'll post. I have a positive view of both religions, and am a practicing Christian.

From my experience, both:
1. believe, at least to some degree, in dedicating one day a week to God (for Jews, that is Friday night to Saturday night, for Christians, it is usually Sunday)
2. have a strong sense of family, and have a certain religious respect for birth, coming of age, marriage, and death, but the rituals are different.
3. believe it is wrong to kill, lie, cheat, steal, lust, worship idols, instigate, dishonor parents, commit adultery, fornicate, etc.

Some differences I've seen
As I understand it, Jews believe non-Jews are supposed to keep basic commandments, but do not need to observe Jewish holidays/traditions. Christians, on the other hand, have a strong belief in proselyting because they usually believe the laws are universal (with exception to slaves who's masters forbid them to be baptized/religious, young children, the mentally disabled, etc.) . Of course, there are multiple views and interpretations in both, so one group doesn't necessarily believe the same as another.

As others have said, Jews are more focused on the law, and Christians more on the heart.

I've known a few Christians to have a very skewed perception of forgiveness (he was a convicted child molester, but he repented and you should forgive him and not report to the authorities that he's adopted a child), but I don't think this is the majority (or, at least, I seriously hope it isn't). In all reality, I believe both hold similar views on forgiveness (be understanding and don't hold a grudge, but make them earn the trust back), but phrase those views differently. The difference, in my experience, is which way they tend to default to, and is relatively small.

All in all, there is a lot of overlap in beliefs and standards, and the real difference, obviously, is their belief in Christ as the Savior or Christ as a prophet (or, in some cases, as simply a person).