Mumsnet Talk

I was going to post this in AIBU, but thought I probably also need some legal advice. Apologies in advance for an epic post, but want to give some background to avoid drip feeding. Hope someone can help.

We've been living in a flat in London for three years, rented from a woman who is also an acquaintance (mother of a one-time work colleague of DH). It's been fine, and the relationship chiefly agreeable. The background is that we've had it at slightly below market value - as she wanted people she knew, and as we'd agreed to do some work on the place when we moved in. We loved it and worked hard to convince her! Since moving in, we've had one rent increase of 100 pounds per month. She was understanding when I was pregnant, and allowed us to stay on for another year without raising rent, when it was up for review last September. We were paying £1300 pcm, for a two-bedroom place near Hampstead Heath. This is definitely below market rates, but not, like, utterly unheard of. This Sept, she said she couldn't keep it below market value and wanted to readvertise. We were fine with this, as we'd been planning to return to NZ in early 2013 anyway, as we told her. She wanted to advertise before Christmas, and as we weren't leaving until February 13, we talked about possibilities. She herself came up with the solution that we rent her home for 2 months, ie Dec and January, as she would be in Australia with family.

This seemed ideal - we would have a base for two months, which would allow us to ship our things, and we'd agreed by email to keep paying the same rent (£1300 pcm) for her place (though it's far nicer). She would get a housesitter over xmas, and got a bit of money (she's obviously asset rich - two houses in London -but doesn't have a huge amount of cashflow).

To cut to the chase. Last Friday I was over at her place, and she was showing me around, how to use the washing machine etc, friendly and nice. On Monday our international shippers come, all like clockwork. We'd scheduled our flat inspection on Tuesday midday, as we'd arranged to go into a B&B for two nights to allow her access to the flat. She was leaving the same day we were going into her place (Dec 7). Monday night we're manically cleaning. Tuesday morning, we're nearly there. She arrives at midday and we're not quite ready for the inspection. Basically, all of our stuff is out, and it's pretty clean, but we're still packing for the two-day trip for B&B, so there are a few things strewn around, rubbish bags waiting to go out, etc. We were admittedly less organised than we'd meant to be, but with a 1 year old DD, who'd just been sick, we were a bit behind schedule. (When we returned on Thurs to complete this pack-up, it took 2 hours from start to finish - so, we were precisely 2 hours' behind schedule of the midday inspection).

In spite of knowing us for three years, in an almost social relationship, she basically had a meltdown. There was a disagreement also about whether we should pay to replace a 10-year-old rug she'd had in the flat that had been moth damaged (we'd stored in our bedroom cupboard, and unbeknownst to us, it had been moth-ridden). We simply stated that we weren't really liable to buy a brand new rug, as it was quite old. Looking back, that was a mistake - but we knew she'd taken previous tenants for a ride on their deposit, and she was also rather hostile already at that point, so we were afraid that she'd keep our deposit in exchange for a really old rug.

Then she ultimately said she wasn't happy for us to rent her place after all. We'd paid one month in advance already, and had had long email discussions about timings, arrangements. We'd been over there twice to discuss baby proofing for our daughter. So, with two days' notice, we have been rendered completely homeless, right before Christmas.

Do we have any legal rights in this matter at all? There was no formal contract, but clear email agreements, and we'd paid the money. We'd continued our direct deposit, as the rent was the same for her place.

We have been lucky that friends have let us stay, but it's hard to communicate the desperation of being suddenly homeless with a one-year-old. This has been one of the hardest things we've coped with (we're pretty lucky that that's the case), and I confess I am just getting angrier and angrier with someone who could do this to us (when the week before she'd been showing us where the lightswitches in her house were).

Any advice would be gratefully received.

You should contact Shelter, they have an advice line so will be able to help. It's likely that they will advise you not to move out (check with them first though). You can withdraw your notice and stay where you are, then give notice a month before you're due to leave the UK. Your deposits should be held in a tenancy deposit scheme (I'm not sure if it's called this, you'll have to check), so you should be able to get both of these back.

Don't panic! Get some advice from Shelter. Do you need the number?

Have you effectively moved out already and perhaps other tenants in or at least signed a lease? Presumbaly it is unfurnished now anyway. The rug would really be down to wear and tear unless she could prove you haven't stored it properly. As the arrangement to use her home temporarily was so informal I doubt you have much legal comeback , sorry. Shelter or CAB could advise.

Thanks for the advice on Shelter. I thought we'd also contact Camden Housing Advice. The tricky thing is we have effectively moved out. We were due to leave on Tuesday, as we'd shipped everything to NZ, and new tenants had signed up and were due to move in on Saturday. We stored our bags in there (that we would have taken over to her place), and removed everything finally on Thursday. Now I realise we should have just stayed, but we didn't have anything, not even a bed! Luckily we've managed to arrange a short-term lease from Gumtree, and have found another interim place too. Our bond deposit is not in a tenancy deposit scheme - she has kept it herself, and had actually been withdrawing £50 per month from it in the last year, as she changed her mind about the rent when she put it up last time. We are still owed £1200, though, and not sure whether we will get it back. She returned the month's rent that would have paid for her place - she just wrote a check and left it at the estate agent, who gave it to us when we returned the keys.

I'm not really interested in mediation - we have covered our immediate crisis. But, I do want to know if she's acted illegally. I'm not usually someone who gets angry, but I am livid about this, and that she's acted to endanger my daughter.

Thanks to both of you for your advice.

The ll and agent have acted illegally by not putting it in a protected scheme. Report them !

LIZS is right, she needs reporting.

I hope all goes well for you, best of luck with the move.

She has acted illegally by not putting your deposit into a Tenancy Deposit Protection Scheme, she's broken the law and is not allowed to do this.

Just had a quick search and this is the first thing came up here extract set out below.

What happens if my landlord doesn’t protect a deposit I have provided?
If your landlord fails to protect a deposit or fails to tell you what scheme they are using you can take them to court. The courts can fine a landlord up to the value of three times the deposit amount you have provided and order them to safeguard your deposit with a scheme provider.

Suffice to say, it's illegala nd you can get your money back plus extra.

Hope you work it out OP

info about your deposit here

england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/paying_for_a_home/tenancy_deposits/deposit_protection_and_tenancy_deposit_schemes

If you have an agreement to have her home for 2 months you have either a tenancy or a license to occupy. If she is in breach you could sue her (in the small claims court) for damages, being the difference between what you'll have to pay elsewhere for the2 months and what you would have paid her.

Thanks everyone - the advice about the deposit is great. I had no idea this was required by law, and have emails that state she has it in a regular bank account. The only problem is that we shipped most of our non-essential documents back to NZ via shippers, and we included our rental agreement in there. Stupidly. Didn't think this would ever be an issue.

I actually don't think she'll try to withhold the deposit - she is probably trying to wash her hands of the issue and won't want any foothold for proceedings.

The main thing I want is some sort of recognition on her part that she has acted wrongly, and cruelly. I kind of want to give her a scare, and a legal-ish letter might do that. I've contacted Camden Council to see if they can give me any other info, and will contact Shelter tomorrow. One detail I never mentioned was that we've always been great tenants - we've painted at our own expense, replaced garden compost heap and planted roses, etc. It's just been a shock. Thanks again for advice.

It also means she cannot make deductions over time to supplement rent as you have suggested. She should have notified you of the details of the scheme it was in within a fixed period of the tenancy beginning. Maybe she cut other corners too - Gas Safety Check, Income Tax etc ? The agency is culpable too, if they claim to be members of NAEA or ARLA they may have breached the code of conduct.

Hi Lizs - she did have a gas safety check done, but I very much doubt she paid any tax on our rent. Our tenancy was actually conducted without an agent - as we knew her privately. However, because she's leaving the country over Christmas and was desperate to get new tenants in on a higher rent, she has now gone through a letting agency for the new tenants, which is why we dropped the keys off there, etc. I'm sure they'll be ensuring this tenancy is above board in this way, though I may check with them, and let them know what she did. We warned the incoming tenants about what had happened. I'm still seething. She can basically get around this by simply returning our deposit - but there is no real recompense for what was tantamount to evicting a young family with no notice period three weeks before Christmas. I'm still seething. I guess we should just count our blessings that we're all okay, and the worst we've suffered is being shaken up... I dread to think what we would have done if hadn't had friends in the city, or some savings.

You can very easily put in a claim via the small claims court for the deposit plus 3 times the amount as she did not put the deposit into a scheme. Cab can help you with this or you can do it yourself

You can very easily put in a claim via the small claims court for the deposit plus 3 times the amount as she did not put the deposit into a scheme. Cab can help you with this or you can do it yourself

OP: if you think that your landlady is avoiding tax due on rental income, you can report her here: www.hmrc.gov.uk/tax-evasion/hotline.htm

and legally you should have 2 months notice to leave - if she has given 3 weeks notice that is illegal too.

Hi all, thanks again for the replies. Collaborate - you mentioned that we had a 'license to occupy', but from what I've read so far online, I think that also means that she could terminate this license without notice. I think that it's excluded from the Protection from Eviction act, because it's actually her principal home. This is all I can gather anyway. Were you aware of anything different about this?

A license is just a contract. If you have a contract that you can live at her house for 2 months and she breached it you are entitled to recover your financial loss.

^^ what Collaborate said. OP, there are two things you can do which should put the wind right up the landlady (and I'd recommend you do them asap to catch her before she goes abroad):

1. Make a claim in relation to the deposit - as others have mentioned, due to her failure to put it in a registered scheme, you can claim what she owes you plus the court has the power to impose a significant fine on her.

2. You have a contractual claim for her breach of your new housing agreement (the legal terminology for that agreement isn't really important - the main point is that you have written evidence of a contractual agreement for you to live in her house for 2 months). Your claim is for the return of any money you have paid to her in relation to that (I think you mentioned upthread you'd paid a month in advance), plus the amount you will incur over and above what you were going to pay her for finding elsewhere to live for the relevant period. The aim of the claim is to put you in the same place financially as you would have been had she honoured the original agreement.

Good luck OP, she must be a complete loon and heartless bitch to put you in this position so close to Christmas.

As the amounts are relatively small, you could even go the small claims route - costs about 35 quid to file online, and is really very easy - bit of a problem given she's going to be in australia for a couple of months though possibly

Get alternative accomodation sorted, costed, (don't go overboard) and having identified your loss you know what to persue her for. The only problem is that court hearings will be in the UK.

I thought she had already returned the rent for first month of her own home ?

Not sure if someone else has said this or not, but the rule about putting a deposit into a scheme is that the landlord has to do it and failure to do so carries huge penalties that the landlord has to pay the tenant.

However, if the landlord fails to do it, then the tenant has to raise a claim before the tenancy ends. But if the landlord finds out that the tenant has raised a valid claim, then all he has to do is put the money into a scheme quickly before the case progresses.

So, unfortunately, its too late for you on this one.

I'm not legally qualified but I think this is how this works since a court ruling in 2010 basically took away the "teeth" from this law.

Ouch!

If this was still ongoing I would say the whole arrangement was contingent; that the 2 rentals were inter-linked and that she couldn't stitch you up like this, and get immediate legal advice.

But the sneaky bitch has got you out; it all seems pre-planned to me.
And you're now fighting too many fires.

Personally I would just break into her place.

You didn't keep spare keys ?