Would you mind fracking under your home?

(33 Posts)
flipflop21 Mon 27-Jan-14 22:11:58

Because if you do you might want to write a letter to your MP (or take a trip to Barton Moss).

"Ministers admit they are looking at overhauling trespass laws to make it easier for energy companies to explore for shale gas"
.....

"Under current law, companies need permission from all the landowners beneath whose land they drill. Case law shows they would otherwise be committing trespass. If a landowner refused permission, the company would have to take them to court, which would decide whether to award drilling rights and how much compensation should be paid."

In order to allow companies to drill horizontal laterals of up to 2 miles long from a single fracking well head the government is seeking to change the law. So if you are within a potential shale producing area then this maybe of interest to you.

www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/fracking/10598473/Fracking-could-be-allowed-under-homes-without-owners-permission.html

Only one well has been fracked using high volume slick water fracking in the UK - see www.frackfreebalcombe.co.uk/page61.php - That was in 2011 at Preese Hall in Lancashire, It caused an earthquake which resulted in minor damage to property.

The map from the Department of Energy and Climate Change here shows the blue areas which are potential shale development areas:
blog.decc.gov.uk/2013/12/17/preparing-for-the-14th-round-of-onshore-oil-and-gas-licences/

Gas may or may not get cheaper (probably not) but your home certainly will.

flatpackhamster Mon 27-Jan-14 22:21:44

Was one thread not enough for you?

flipflop21 Mon 27-Jan-14 22:22:56

I just miss your banter flatpack

Isitmebut Tue 28-Jan-14 13:35:30

Flipflop21…along the flatfathampsters lines, here was one I prepared earlier, to which I’ll add to after

“In my opinion the different regions should have their own say whether to frack, or not to frack, especially as the reserves are so huge, if we can recover around 10% of the shale gas etc, we could be self sufficient for 30-50-years.

The Uk’s energy policy, by both design and neglect, leaves us relying on Russia and Iran for Europe’s gas supply, an ever politically volatile Arab Gulf for our light crude oil, France for our nuclear electricity and the rest of the world for wind turbines – our supply crisis aside, the Uk has a crisis in energy SECURITY – neither of which more ideological regulation and taxes on ever dwindling supplies and suppliers, will solve.

In the U.S. fracking has been going on for nearly a decade, they will be energy sufficient and EXPORTING the stuff within a few years, the tax receipts have helped the government's deficit and the much CHEAPER PRICES have made both businesses more competitive/ more jobs AND the people’s bills lower.

In the UK, fracking has been going on for 50-years near a nature reserve in Beckingham Marshes, Nottinghamshire, apparently with no side affects and everyone around the site is ‘happy’ – so to my mind the benefits are huge IF, and I repeat IF, the process is safe.

The fact is, until we let companies try to lift the stuff, we don’t know if we have an option/problem of being energy self sufficient, or not.”


Ok re the 50-years of fracking in Beckingham Marshes mentioned in that post you have successfully challenged (for now) as I haven't looked elsewhere, but do you not think that similar to the EU we need sensible debate and solid facts, before scare mongering – as the benefits to the UK will be HUGE, if fracking is safe?
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2396378/50-year-old-fracking-site-makes-mockery-Balcombe-zealots-Its-nature-reserve--fracked-gas-oil-power-21-000-homes-day--complaints-locals.html

flipflop21 Tue 28-Jan-14 18:42:46

Erm - If you refer to my question you will notice that I have not asked whether we should frack or not, whether it's safe or whether it's good for the UK or not. I asked - "do you want it going on under your home?" - aq very real possibility for many in the future should the industry take off.

I have posted solid facts isitebut. That's why you can't find a counter argument. It's not scaremongering.

Regarding your comment re different regions should have a say about whether to frack there or not, I agree. However planning rules have changed so that planning permission applications relating to mineral extraction cannot be challenged on the basis of seismology, venting, flaring and other grounds directly related to the activity. Local decision making is being over ruled by central government. So locals do not therefore have a real say in whether it happens or not.

Please see other some of the other fracking threads for a decent summary of counter arguments to your points - ie cheaper prices etc.

Isitmebut Wed 29-Jan-14 11:06:44

Flipflop21….it appears that we both agree that scaremongering and exaggerations won’t help anyone, so in that ‘spirit’, please let me put forward the following.

Firstly using hopefully a more objective news source looking in on us, I will concede that we are unlikely to see the gas prices at 30 odd% of the other countries like the U.S., as funny old world, we may have ‘the wrong type of shale’, much harder to extract from.

But that is not to say that we won’t get a discount other than locally the 1% of the proceeds of gas extracted – whatever, overall the tax receipts by definition WILL help reduce the deficit by a responsible government – which should mean less taxes and cuts to reduce our national debt.
www.nytimes.com/2014/01/15/opinion/why-shale-gas-wont-conquer-britain.html?_r=0

Next using the U.S. experiences where clearly fracking has been going on for a decade, I now understand that fracking DOES cause small tremors/earthquakes, BUT ONLY WHERE AREAS ARE ALREADY PRONE, WITH EXISTING FAULTLINES beneath.

Now trying to remember my rigorous geology studies, via my Geography ‘ology, (yeah right, but I did get past stalacTIGHTS ), the Uk has varied geological influences making up our landscape, but not along similar (fault) lines to Ohio or other U.S. States on their west coast – but we should know enough of our own geology to avoid the high(?) risk area and frack ourselves silly, safely – water table risks assessment aside, that is.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2412048/Fracking-DID-cause-109-earthquakes-Ohio-confirm-scientists-opposition-controversial-process-grows.html

flipflop21 Wed 29-Jan-14 14:13:13

And this link shows some how much attention Cuadrilla paid to pre-exisiting faults. It doesn't inspire confidence. Remember this company had planning permission to frack in Balcombe but not the permit from the Environment from the EA.

http://www.davidsmythe.org/fracking/cuadrilla%20sussex%20critique%20V1.pdf

flipflop21 Wed 29-Jan-14 14:13:35

And this link shows some how much attention Cuadrilla paid to pre-exisiting faults. It doesn't inspire confidence. Remember this company had planning permission to frack in Balcombe but not the permit from the Environment from the EA.

www.davidsmythe.org/fracking/cuadrilla%20sussex%20critique%20V1.pdf

flipflop21 Wed 29-Jan-14 14:14:24

sorry that should read "from the environment agency".

Isitmebut Wed 29-Jan-14 14:50:40

Maybe Cuadrilla were more concerned about getting lynched trying to put in an exploratory well there, or anywhere else.

Seriously though, as that Paul Stevens article in the New York Times link explains, like the rest of the country, there was too much regulation in place, in an expensive quantity over quality basis – and that will change, we will have better safeguards in place than the U.S.

Exploratory wells are very unlikely to cause any UK earthquakes, when even in proven fault line Ohio, with over 100 quakes, they caused little damage.

I reiterate my earlier point, why not let them get ALL the exploratory wells out of the way to see if they are at least (individually) viable, before going into a mass defensive mode - as if companies have no interest drilling in certain areas, it will save a lot of anxious effort to find problems, before they even break ground to see if it’s worth their effort.

flipflop21 Wed 29-Jan-14 15:57:16

Because the regulation is not yet in place.

The only regulations that exist are those that apply to offshore oil exploration and arguably they are not fit for purpose. There is no one set of rules or one single body responsible for monitoring and enforcing onshore oil and gas extraction. Also there are cut backs being made to the EA so how can they enforce regulation if onshore drilling expands rapidly.

Surely if Cuadrilla were concerned about getting lynched they would have tried harder to provide clear and accurate geological information? Surely they have a professional responsibility to do so?

The regulation that is in place assumes best practice by oil companies and effective self monitoring. The document I linked suggests that Cuadrilla are not committed to best practice and therefore they have lost public confidence. That is alongside fracking a damaged well in 2011 and not adhering to planning restrictions. The agencies responsible for monitoring did not pick up on these discrepancies, it has been down to the local people to do so.

It's quite simply not good enough.

Isitmebut Wed 29-Jan-14 16:20:24

Agreed, so lets find out if its all worth the bother, before we form a Godzilla sized Quango on 2-years six-figure contracts, to monitor major drilling that may not go ahead by, Cuadrilla.

I'm sure there were those that said drilling holes in the North Sea would be like making a giant plug hole for it to drain away, or no oil tankers should exist in case they sink and spill their oil into the sea - this is hardly a wild west frontier here.

flipflop21 Wed 29-Jan-14 16:59:24

Exploratory drilling and flow testing included fracking and other processes such acid washing. So, no. Get the regulation and the regulatory bodies in place . How can the industry develop safely without these things? If the government is so confident in the financial gains of the industry it should invest in this properly. I think the Royal Society report on shale gas and oil actually says this too.

flipflop21 Fri 31-Jan-14 09:25:07

They've changed the law anyway now...

"Homeowners will no longer be individually notified of plans to drill under their homes, as part of changes that Lords suggest received inadequate public consultation and parliamentary scrutiny"

www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/fracking/10605859/Pro-fracking-planning-reforms-rushed-through-despite-strong-opposition-Lords-warn.html

Isitmebut Fri 31-Jan-14 13:14:06

Flipflop2…the UK government(s) and therefore ‘we the people’, in terms of energy affecting our daily lives, have run out of time. We can sit here worrying about “acid washing”, or drilling so deep we increase immigration, as thousands of slim Chinese people crawl up through the holes – we have a national energy emergency, government FINALLY has to make decisions TO DO SOMETHING about it.

The government believed a few years ago "The UK regulatory system is up to the job for the present very small scale exploration activities, but there would need to be strengthening of the regulators if the government decides to proceed with more shale gas extraction, particularly at the production stage,"
www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18611647

The UK government has only just ensured that ‘the mother’ of useless regulation, the EU, doesn’t cause more delays and puts off the private investment VITAL to answering the basic questions on the viability of shale gas etc in the UK – we need to answer those questions with existing regulations.
networks.euskills.co.uk/news/uk-defeats-european-bid-fracking-regulations

The UK will have third-world type (aptly named) ‘Brownouts’ at the first severe winter from now onwards, as predicted by Ofgem back in 2012.

As explained in the link below, Labour ministers dithered for 10-years authorising a new generation of nuclear power plants, when half of our ageing reactors were due to be decommissioned within several years - partly because they felt that the resistance to the 11 new reactors(that he realised may not have been enough) would be intense, both from environmental groups and local communities – and partly because they were incompetent in getting the private sector to contractually pay for a new type of reactor that have yet to be completed here, or anywhere else.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/politics/1983467-UK-Energy-Policy-Price-scandal-outages-due

*In conclusion, unlike the likes of HS2 where we can debate ourselves silly IF the new money being spent on existing lines t’north will be sufficient to help rebalance the North-South economic divide – the UK has already left it too late to decide what energy will be ‘nice’, clean, or without minor risks, whether the country could afford it on not.

Governments inaction due to incompetence and/or electoral reasons has to end, and like everything else from 2010, tough decisions have to be made for ALL of the people, rather than just the environmentalists and local communities affected – as they will moan just as loud as the rest of the country, when their power goes out. IMO*.

BelaLugosisShed Fri 31-Jan-14 13:53:52

I would have absolutely no problem with fracking in my area, it has far less enviromental impact than say, open cast mining, although I don't have a major problem with that either, I can see a former open cast site fom my upstairs window, it's now a beautiful country park with thriving wildlife and wetlands.
Something going on 10000 feet below my house using guar gum ( which is in a lot of food) doesn't worry me at all. I have a friend who is a very senior petrochemical engineer, I trust his knowledge more than the scaremongering papers etc.

bemybebe Fri 31-Jan-14 13:55:08

I have no problem

SirChenjin Fri 31-Jan-14 13:56:16

No, I don't want any drilling from a profit making energy company going on under my house, whether it's for shale gas or fairy dust.

Isitmebut Fri 31-Jan-14 14:14:43

SirChenjin...Who do you want to do it, a fairly land non profit organization that don't exist, or your near bankrupt government heading for £1,500,000,000,000 (£1.5 trillion) of National Debt - that in 2008 insisted for frofit organisations funded us - and now HAS to rely on the investment from the Private Sector and other dodgy governments i.e. France and China, to keep our lights on?

SirChenjin Fri 31-Jan-14 14:54:18

Actually - scrub profit making from my sentence. The rest remains.

Isitmebut Fri 31-Jan-14 15:51:13

S.C...What, you still believe that there is “fairy dust” under your home?

Back to ‘profit making companies’ and their shareholders, after Mr Miliband who as the last Labour Energy Minister KNEW how important it was for the UK to secure the private funding on energy generation companies to pay for our £150 bil nuclear power programme, STILL recently told THEM he wanted to control their prices, he wiped several £billion off of their share prices.

I would therefore suggest that those shareholders, including the public via their pension funds, are already acutely aware that there is little profit, or point, in investing in UK energy generation – with future P.M. Miliband running around the UK in 2015, issuing anti business/profit government dictates, with all the energy of the Duracell Bunny.

With no private sector energy investment in the UK, pension funds should be switching into company stocks that make candles and produce portable liquid gas, imported from Russia or Iran, as the countries with probably the largest known gas reserves in the world, but prone to turning the taps off to make a political point.

SirChenjin Fri 31-Jan-14 16:08:20

Yes, of course I still believe there's fairy dust. Absolutely. Without a shadow of a doubt. (I'm being facetious, in case you're in any doubt)

I'll leave you to rant to a completely disinterested audience - I'm afraid I nodded off round about 'profit making' but I'm sure that it's deeply fascinating, if that's what floats your boat.

Isitmebut Fri 31-Jan-14 17:33:49

SirChenjin…’profits’ I suspect do not float many boats here, but people should be concerned that they DO build power stations, explore for badly needed underground gas AND build homes.

So frankly I am VERY concerned that Mr Miliband, who went to Oxford and achieved a degree in P.P.E (the ‘E’ being Economics) and then went to the prestigious London School of Economic to get a Masters degree, then appears to have less knowledge of market forces than someone leaving a bolt standard Comprehensive, with an ‘ology in Business Studies.

When such a bright man leaves office responsible for the UK going bust and having severely mauled private pensions - and his party has such an abysmal record on energy and homebuilding, but desperately needs the Private Sector to rectify it – why on earth would such an economics guru like Ed, think that he can both attack the energy and house building sector into providing investment, (with the additional threat of State controlled profits), to correct Labour’s past mistakes?

Truly the man is in the economic world of the fairies, despite such an elitist education.

ThatBloodyWoman Fri 31-Jan-14 17:36:04

I certainly do not want fracking in my backyard or anyone else's.

yes,I feel a letter to my mp coming on.

TalkinPeace Fri 31-Jan-14 18:58:23

Most of Bournemouth and Poole have had fracking under them for many years with no ill effects :
in fact they did not notice till last year the area covered by the fracking pipes and therefore that it ran under their houses and gardens and nature reserves

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