ZOMBIE THREAD ALERT: This thread hasn't been posted on for a while.
Oxford men accused of grooming/child-traff
icking/ prostitution/raping/ assaulting vunerable girls for as long as 8 years.
Case being held at the Old Bailey, the trial started on Monday and will last upto 3 months. If you are interested there is a link in the Oxford Mail Online where updates are reported from the court throughout the day.
http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/bullfinch/ or search operation bullfinch.
Seems like another in a line of these gangs, following Rochdale. Did the police turn a blind eye, as they did there?
It sounds so similar to the Rochdale case.
It's horrifying. The crimes themselves are horrifying, but the refusal by the police to investigate, record crimes, support the victims and tell the CPS is even more frightening. And the fact that it hasn't just happened once in one place. WTF do the police think they are there for, fgs?
The reported cases all seem to be Asian/Pakistani men. But, what I don't know if that's just the cases that get reported, or they are the main group involved in these sort of crimes.
I'm honestly not trying to make any racist point (really hope it doesn't come across that I am), but in the same way that blond, white girls being killed is news whereas young black men being killed is not, are we seeing the true overall situation, or just the newsworthy part of it?
With two cases now being heard, I really hope the police, countrywide, buck up their ideas next time a report along these lines is made to them.
I believe it is not so much that they are Asian/Pakistani, but Muslim. I believe Indian groups have objected to the 'Asian' description, noting that they are not Hindu or Sikh but Muslim.
There is the same issue in Holland with Moroccan and Turkish Muslim men. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2237170/Why-Amsterdams-legal-brothels-lesson-Britain-telling-truth-sex-gangs-race.html
Official policy has been to downplay such links in the interests of 'community relations'.
Living in Oxford is not at all the same as attending Oxford ....Unfortunately many people reading those headlines would not make the distinction.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Sorry Mimishimi, I do not get your post. Attending Oxford? These men were all living in Oxford.
I think the point may be that these are described as 'Oxford men', which would tend to convey a certain impression, certainly globally, whereas describing them as 'Muslim men' would convey another. As I understand it there are 8 men 'of Pakistani origin' and two of North African, one or both of which is Egyptian.
Obviously Oxford is not all dons and degrees, but has a degree of deprivation also.
Well said smudging
Religion does not come into, but there is definitely a cultural issue with how Muslims see/regard/treat females. It is shocking. The fact that they make their own 'cover up' to avoid temptation speaks volumes.
The degree of violence and overall abuse in these cases is what is shocking. The victims are essentially children. So saddening to read about in today's society.
Religion does come into it because it has been used as an excuse to avoid investigating and because you have to ask what are the Imans teaching young Muslim men and women? I saw an article that pointed out many Imans are elderly recent immigrants from countries with very different views on the roles of women and the (lack of) rights of women. It seems possible - and I'm not claiming to be an expert here, but someone needs to find out whether this is true - that there are Imans in Mosques in Britain who are fostering hostile attitudes to women.
I don't think you can change insular attitudes that easily. If they want to teach that women should dress modestly, no sex before marriage and so on, that's up to them really.
I think the issue is more with protecting women from these men.
If the police are frightened of policing minority groups, and if official bodies more generally are wary of dealing with issues specific to minority groups, that is a problem.
For instance, 50% of British Pakistanis marry their first cousin, which causes immense problems.
One third of all children born with recessive genetic diseases in the UK come from the Pakistani community, which comprises only 1.5% of the population.
I imagine that many of these cousins will arrive direct from Pakistan, which obviously brings more problems in terms of lack of English language skills, insularity/community relations, and so on. These would not be on any objective list of 'most desirable immigrants to promote British peace and prosperity'.
And that's before you consider the issue of why people are marrying their cousins. Children brought up in the mainstream of British society do not want to marry their cousins. So how many are not doing this willingness?
Why have we not banned cousin marriage, and prevented people from migrating to the UK in order to marry their cousins?
Cousin marriage is a medieval practice, common in many primitive societies, designed to keep wealth within the extended family. Most British would regard it as an undesirable practice.
But MPs are afraid to even talk about it.
Such issues do not figure on the news agenda.
Jimmy Savile was a prolific abuser and has rightly been thoroughly investigated, but where is the similar investigation of the much more recent abuse that has gone on in Rochdale, is going in Oxford, and, one can only imagine, other areas of the country with Pakistani populations.
I think it's a mistake not to take into account how culture shapes attitudes and makes some crimes and actions more likely it different communities. What worries me with the focus on Muslim men in these grooming cases is that there seems to be an unspoken assumption that if "their culture" was more like "our culture" then this sort of thing wouldn't happen. But "our culture" isn't so great either and more White people are found guilty of grooming offences than Asian.
I think we need to work harder at (amoung other things) making British culture generally more accepting of the idea that women aren't sex objects and that sex is a shared experioence rather than something men get from women. Then I think we will have something more positive for everyone to want to be a part of, as well as shaping the way our institutions and us as individuals respond to girls who report abuse when it does happen.
"where is the similar investigation of the much more recent abuse that has gone on in Rochdale, is going in Oxford, and, one can only imagine, other areas of the country with Pakistani populations." I find this a really odd comment. The investigations are right there - in the courts being prosecuted. Not to mention the serious case review in Rochdale.
"more White people are found guilty of grooming offences than Asian."
Well no, not really. Firstly it's not 'White' and 'Asian', they are specifically Pakistani, rather than Filipino or Chinese, say.
And the country is 90%+ white, so it would be a miracle if there weren't more white people convicted than Pakistani. But in terms of a proportion of the total it's much higher.
"I find this a really odd comment. The investigations are right there - in the courts being prosecuted. Not to mention the serious case review in Rochdale."
Yes there are cases in Oxford and Rochdale. No action was taken in either case for years and years, for various reasons.
It seems unlikely that there are not similar cases in other cities that have not been investigated.
"I think we need to work harder at (amoung other things) making British culture generally more accepting of the idea that women aren't sex objects and that sex is a shared experioence rather than something men get from women. Then I think we will have something more positive for everyone to want to be a part of, as"
I don't see why you would assume that people from other cultures will identify with this concept of sex as a shared experience between equals. It might make sense in a white liberal Western culture, but that's just one particular outlook on life, and it would be very easy for people from another culture to dismiss this culture as one of promiscuity and lasciviousness.
In any case the point about these communities is that they are separate in many ways from British culture. Many British Pakistani women don't speak English and don't venture outside of their own community. It's hard to imagine them being empowered.
In this case it's clear that there has been a failure by specific (mostly) white institutions to protect vulnerable white girls from (mostly) Pakistani men.
Rather than trying to insist there is no specific issue, the way to protect these girls is to recognise that there is one, and deal with it on that basis.
I have a very distant (white English) relative who has been sexually active with a string of Pakistani men since the age of 14 or 15. She's in her 20s now and clearly despised by the - largely married -men she sleeps with and her own family/friends who laugh at her.
She sleeps with them willingly, no 'crime' has been committed as such. In return for sex, she gets affection, presents bought for her - she has 3 children by 3 different Asian men.
I think the problem the police have with securing convictions is that so many of these women/girls were not 'raped' in the way that we see rape (women walking home alone, dragged into bush, attacked). These girls are befriended by these men and are easy pickings.
Part of the problem lies in our own culture. Why do these young women have so little sense of their own worth and no family/friends to turn to that sleeping with old men is the only way they can gain validation? Sad.
It not accurate to say that Asian groups are the biggest abusers of children in the UK.
The interim report of the Children's Commissioner "Inquiry into Child Sexual Exploitation In Gangs and Groups" published in November 2012 says:
"As with the victim data, it is not possible to extrapolate from this information a definitive statement about the ethnic origin of perpetrators. This is because their backgrounds were not reported as part of call for evidence submissions or in other forms of evidence. In addition, as is the case with victim data, the ethnicities provided are weighted in favour of those areas and agencies that were able to identify perpetrators and those perpetrators who were most visible. Compared with the data on victims, considerably less is known about perpetrators and the available data are limited.
As with the victim data, while White individuals form the largest group of perpetrators in both gangs and groups, BME individuals, particularly those loosely classified as Asian, are the second largest category of perpetrators reported via the call for evidence. Within the wider evidence base, it is evident that data are more proactively gathered on men and boys of Pakistani and Kurdish origin.
As was the case with victims data, during site visits it was apparent that agencies frequently focused on the model of sexual exploitation identified in high profile cases such as those in Derby and Rochdale. Perpetrators, like victims, had similar individual characteristics to those featured in those cases. As a result this was the specific pattern of abuse professionals looked out for. They often told the panel that the perpetrator groups were Asian without a more detailed analysis, including whether this label referred to nationality or ethnicity. The Inquiry was informed in several site visits of groups of perpetrators who were described generically as Asian but who, upon further investigation, turned out to include Afghan, Kurdish and White British perpetrators."
So it seems there are three conclusions regarding the perpetrators of gang or group related sexual exploitation of children:
1. The biggest group of abusers are white.
2. Police and local authorities are more likely to see abuse by ethnic minority group for what it is.
3. There is a bias in reporting which means that abuse by "Asian" groups is over reported and that by "White" groups is under reported.
The report identified 415 out of 1514 perpetrators of abuse as Asian. 545 were white. 244 were black. Thus even if the remaining perpetrators were ALL white, the proportion of 'Asian' perpetrators is still 27%, which is far in excess of the proportion of 'Asians' in the population as a whole, which is around 5%.
I agree with alot of what you say, Thistlewood. I can say Over the last few years the only crimes I have heard of this nature was 1 all white group, 1 Eastern European group and these 2 (Oxford and Rochdale) Asian groups. bearing in mind, in the Oxford Case 2 are not Pakistani but possibly Egyptian/ Somalian. In the Rochdale case 1 of the gang was Afghani.
I fail to see this as an Asian "thing".
Men who were never taught to respect women is the problem.
I think the point is that by saying that this is predominantly a problem caused by the 'Asian' (or any other minority) community, we risk ignoring or diluting the message that in fact we have a problem in our majority community with the sexualisation of young people, girls in particular. As Tryharder points out, part of the problem of tackling this type of abuse is that young people often express a form of consent to what is done to them. They frequently don't see themselves as victims of abuse, but as beneficiaries of what happens to them. Where does this attitude come from? We can't blame ethnic minority groups for attitudes that are foisted onto children by society as a whole.
There are quite a few more:
BBC 3 programme:
I agree btw that obviously these girls are prematurely sexualised. I would imagine the abusers would point out that girls within their community are comparatively chaste and point to this as a model.
While this might have been viable in the mainstream of British culture in the 1950s, say, it doesn't seem that way now.
What is the answer then? There is an incredible dissonance between a culture which says to our young people that it is 'cool' to be 'up for it', to display your sexuality, that not being available for sex is shameful, whilst at the same time condemning the adults who respond to it.
I agree that it is unlikely that we can put the genie back in the bottle so that our young people do become 'chaste' again, but I think that we can do an awful lot more in terms of changing the message that our young people see about what is 'normal' in a sexual relationship. That it is not 'normal' to get drunk or high before you have sex. That it is not 'normal' to engage in sex with several people at once. That it is not 'normal' to have a sex with a whole sequence people who you don't know. That it is not normal to have sex with people who don't care about you as a person. That if someone calls you a slut, it is a sign they are not treating you with the respect you deserve, rather than a reflection on your worth.
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