Poor people still clinging to life, warns Iain Duncan Smith

(120 Posts)
ttosca Mon 31-Dec-12 15:34:38

The work and pensions secretary has issued a stark warning that some poor people are stubbornly clinging to life despite his best efforts to remove them from the welfare system by killing them off.

Writing in the Daily Telegraph, Iain Duncan Smith said that people who are poor and alive are much more likely to claim benefits and tax credits than people who are dead.

“The overwhelming majority of people who claim benefits are alive,” he explained.

“This is a situation that we cannot allow to continue.”

“We need to implement a system that encourages people off benefits and into mortuaries.”
Duncan Smith on obituaries

Mr Duncan Smith also lambasted the tax credit system put in place by Labour, describing it as “not fit for purpose”.

“It is not fair that decent hardworking people should have to foot the bill for decent hardworking people,” he said.

“What we need is a fairer system that involves employers paying what they want, being able to sack people when they want and for whatever reason they want.”

“Employers are more likely to create jobs and take on more staff if they can sack them.”

Duncan Smith used numerous pieces of evidence-free evidence in order to highlight how the poorest in society are causing the UK to haemorrhage money quicker than Paul Merson playing Three-card Monte.

“It is important when discussing welfare reforms that I use the word ‘fraud’ as often as possible,” he said.

“It is equally important when discussing tax avoidance and MPs expense claims that I don’t use it at all.”

“That way everyone knows where they stand.”

newsthump.com/2012/12/31/poor-people-still-clinging-to-life-warns-iain-duncan-smith/

claig Mon 31-Dec-12 17:58:21

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NC78 Mon 31-Dec-12 18:00:46

Claig, have you seen this thread? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1647446-to-think-Id-want-to-remain-conscious-if-dying-not-be-in-a-Liverpool-Care-Co

There's a lot of scare mongering going on about the LCP

Xmaspuddingsaga Mon 31-Dec-12 18:14:08

What shocked me was yesterday talking to Db (who is 25 unemployed and living with his working gf). He cannot claim jsa and therefore will not appear in the unemployment figures.Makes wonder how many are in the same boat.

claig Mon 31-Dec-12 18:18:08

NC78, I have seen some ex New Labour ministers on Sky News saying that they think the 'pathway' is a good idea. I don't trust a lot of New Labour types. I didn't think that Blair was 'a straight kinda guy' as he told us. I also don't like to see millionaire Tories saying that the 'pathway' is fantastic when thousans of people are put on it without being told.

I trust the people and the people's paper - the Daily Mail. I have more faith in the anti-euthanasia society than in many politicians. I' like millions of other Daily Mail readers, applaud the real Tory Daily Mail's fight to bring these subjects to public attention and to inform the people.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2225009/The-medical-professions-lethal-arrogance-Liverpool-Care-Pathway.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2240075/Now-sick-babies-death-pathway-Doctors-haunting-testimony-reveals-children-end-life-plan.html

'Investigation, including child patients, will look at whether cash payments to hospitals to hit death pathway targets have influenced doctors' decisions'

I don't trust a lot of these 'targets'. I trust the people and the Daily Mail and it also seems to me that the spoof newspaper sites do get some things right.

WildWorld2004 Mon 31-Dec-12 18:26:17

I read his proper statement this morning. I dont think my work are going to increase my wages or my hours so that i dont need tax credits. The only job i could get was 8 hours a week. For me to be bringing home enough money i would need 4or 5 jobs. It is just not really practical.

I hate IDS & Osbourne & Cameron & the majority of the tories. They dont live in the real world.

grimbletart Mon 31-Dec-12 19:11:01

I have this little game I play - guess which threads are started by ttosca.
I have a 100% record so far. Sooooo predictable grin

CogitOCrapNotMoreSprouts Mon 31-Dec-12 19:17:32

Suppose I knew I'd be in a minority of one.... smile But even the most ardent supporter has to concede that Tax Credits were a botch job. Giving away handouts to families on £50k+?.... that's not helping poverty, that's an out and out electoral bribe. The bizarre calculation structure makes quantum physics look like a walk in the park and more than a few people (who probably need the money) simply don't claim for fear that HMRC will come knocking asking for the money back. Because it's so difficult to calculate & so variable with income disregards and so forth it's relatively easy to fiddle.

No I don't think wages would suddenly go up if WTCs disappeared because there's a surplus of labour and it's an employers' market. However, 10 years ago in the boom times, wages didn't go up much either... why?... because Tax Credits meant they didn't have to.

And yes, it keeps people down by providing them an income that they can never hope to match in the workplace owing to lack of qualifications or experience. Any system that results in having to weigh up whether it's worth taking the slightly better job or keeping sights set perpetually low for fear of losing TCs is not promoting social mobility. Which famously reduced under Labour...

You're welcome.

FestiveElement Mon 31-Dec-12 19:31:16

I agree with Cogito about tax credits.

I also think that the way the labour government encouraged confusion between working tax credits and child tax credits was a brilliant marketing ploy.

pointedlynoresolutions Mon 31-Dec-12 21:01:36

I think tax credits were a disaster - DH and I never claimed them though we would have been entitled, but we were put off by friends and colleagues having to pay back overpayments at ridiculously short notice because the system was so badly run. I also agree that they allowed employers to get away with paying poverty wages.

Having said all that, I think IDS is probably the most evil member of this hellish government and that he has a deep and abiding hatred of poor people because their existence reminds him that he was once one of them. And everything about his policies reminds me of a certain sign above the gate of a certain well-known Nazi death camp.

Jellykat Mon 31-Dec-12 21:21:10

Tax credits were/ are a lifeline for me and my fellow self employed claimants - building up a business takes time, meanwhile you've still got to eat, support children and run a home!

2old2beamum Mon 31-Dec-12 22:07:56

Jellykat like you without CTC we would not survive Perhaps IDS would like to come and shoot all our family DH & I too old to work DC's too disabled and young.

pointedlynoresolutions Mon 31-Dec-12 22:14:11

I agree that there should be financial support for people starting up businesses, and for people who are saving the state £megabucks by caring for disabled children. I am just not sure tax credits were ever the most sensible way to do it.

But it's all academic now that IDS is in charge, his hatred for people who aren't middle class or millionaires knows no bounds.

Leithlurker Mon 31-Dec-12 22:26:29

So would those that think tax credits are a bad thing like to tell us how else ar those that are paid low wages ever going to afford housing, transport, repayment of loans, repayment of student loans etc.

One way would be to raise the NMW to something useful, or perhaps force down the cost of all housing. Perhaps even prevent those earning less than 25k from taking on any more than 10k worth of debt. The slight of hand which introduced the notion of etc was not new labour it was brought in much earlier by the tories, and why? They knew damn well that unless low wages were subsidies the whole capitalist house of cards would be seen for what it is, a ponzie scheme.

So yes etc are not great they cover up for a basic shortfall in wages and in earning potential. So go on explain how you would paper the cracks or do we send the banking system in to yet another free fall and end the charade right here right now. Then those who have the most to lose will really have something to worry about.

Xenia Tue 01-Jan-13 10:18:01

IDS is a good man. I regard the first post as libelous. You may not agree with his politics but he certainly wants to do good as do most politicians of all parties. He is trying very hard to find a way to help those in difficulties and make work pay. He has fought the Government and won to allow the huge extra cost that the new universal benefit will cost.

The Pathway is not how it is represented. People need to read it properly. It has been misdescribed in the press by many people.

claig Tue 01-Jan-13 10:49:17

It is surprising to see that even the Guardian has a few questioning voices about the pathway.

www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/dec/30/controversial-liverpool-care-pathway-palliative

The Daily Mail had an article which mentioned a 14 year old child who was on the pathway and who had died with his or her tongue stuck to the roof of their mouth due to not receiving water to drink.

In the Mail, a doctor described how babies shrank over days as they did not receive water.

In today's Mail, a man describes how his mother's head changed shape

'He added: ‘It was a grotesque death. When I watched my mother die over those 33 hours she was so thin and dehydrated, it actually changed the shape of her head.'

I would expect the Guardian to have articles which support the pthway

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/06/jeremy-hunt-end-of-life-care

and I would expect the Daily Mail to question it

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2217748/Care-No-pathway-killing-people-doctors-deem-worthless.html

I think it is highly likely that the questioning of the Daily Mail and the Daily Telegraph is what led in part to an inquiry into it.

'"It is clear that everyone wants their loved ones' final hours of life to be as pain free and dignified as possible, and the Liverpool Care Pathway is an important part of achieving this aim. However, as we have seen, there have been too many cases where patients were put on the pathway without a proper explanation or their families being involved. This is simply unacceptable," said Lamb, a Liberal Democrat, in a statement.

www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/nov/26/liverpool-care-pathway-review-pledge

Leithlurker Tue 01-Jan-13 10:57:38

IDS (Or Idiot Deserves Shooting as I like to call him) has presided over the whole sale dismantling of the safety net for hundreds of thousands of your fellow countrymen and women xenia. As you can see for yourself when you look at the number of appeals that are won by those who have the energy and the ability to fight against false and malicious ATOS assessments. Saving the government how much?

But that is not the main harm, the harm is the spiteful and deliberative misleading language which he as the person in charge has to take responsibility for, the language of scroungers and cheats. The wave of hate unleashed by the likes of the mail and the sun on disabled people and their careers which has manifested in higher incidents of hate crime being reported. This nice man of yours has set back the acceptance of disabled peoples right to be just an ordinary citizen by 20 years. We are once again back to being burdens with little prospect of leading independent meaningful lives, thanks to all the cuts and the general mismanagement of the economy. If he is an example of a good man, then we most definitely need a reality check.

niceguy2 Tue 01-Jan-13 11:04:56

Tax credits is/was a well meaning but badly implemented policy. Good because it had the noble aim of helping those on lower incomes. Bad because politician's used it as a political tool to hook middle income earners into benefits which they hoped would mean they'd be less likely to vote Tory in future.

Other bad points:

- Totally unfunded. Money for this was borrowed rather than switched from another area.

- Overly complex. Very few can work out their correct entitlement. How many people are overpaid each year and subject to clawbacks? Less now because Labour fiddled it by changing the threshold from £5k to £25k!

- Created a disincentive to work. Plenty of people are finding that extra hours don't pay.

I'm sure there are more.

So in my view, supporting those on lower incomes is fine. But it doesn't mean that tax credits are the only answer. Frankly it's been a piss poor answer. Those who say "Oh but I would have starved without it" are missing the point. The point is "Was tax credits the most efficient way?"

The answer to that has to be no. So for that reason I am looking forward to Universal Credit. It seems to be overall fairer. It won't be perfect. It may even take a bit of time to establish itself like tax credits did. No doubt the press will have a field day at every hiccup. But to plough on with a crap system seems madness to me.

Xenia Tue 01-Jan-13 15:19:29

IDS and indeed the coalition have the best interests of people at heart and are trying to improve a system which is rotten to the core and does not really work. Good luck to them. IDS has many many supporters out there despite the impression given on this thread.

www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/universal-credit-faqs.pdf

JustAHolyFool Tue 01-Jan-13 15:24:45

I'm sure they do have their best interests at heart, but given that none of them have ever been poor, I can't see how they can possibly understand how to best legislate for people who have no money/chances/education.

"IDS and indeed the coalition have the best interests of people at heart"

People like them maybe.

NC78 Tue 01-Jan-13 16:01:44

Universal credit will be a shambles.

MiniTheMinx Tue 01-Jan-13 16:26:59

<<<IDS is a good man>>> yes I believe you are right Xenia, there is nothing inherently "evil" about Duncan Smith. But he is a misguided man, he sold out and works against his own class interest because his notion of "good" is tied up with "godly" he is the nearest thing the Tories have had to that other good man, their founder Edmund Burke. Who conflated poverty with immorality.

Burke's objection was to the confusion about the term 'labouring poor,' the confusion between those who worked for their subsistence and those who could not work and were dependent on charity. It was for the latter, he insisted, that the word 'poor' should be reserved – 'for the sick and infirm, for orphan infancy, for languishing and decrepit old age.'

So first you notice that the poor must be separated, then deny that the working poor exist. _IDS believes there is no such thing as working poor_

On that basis IDS is doing a fabulous job.

TC are a subsidy to businesses, the greatest wealth has been redistributed not to the poor but to businesses who offer less than subsistence pay.

Nothing changes, 250 years of working class subjugation and still people vote for their own ruin.

Xenia Tue 01-Jan-13 22:14:09

You are not describing the IDS that is IDS. Most people are out of work for one year. IDS is helping them get back on their feet. His universal credit is a good plan. It does seem to be getting complex. As you get all kinds of additions depending on number of children etc which seems to spoil the simplicity of the original plan but it is trying to ensure your benefits are not affected if you take on a bit of extra work rather than having to come on and off them all the time and seeks to reward those who work. What is not to like?

I don't think the fact MPs are in work means they cannot make laws which affect people who aren't. There seems to be huge hatred for the Coalition on this thread. Blair went to public school. IDS I think went to state school. I don't think either of them is/was precluded from making laws - indeed someone without education who has never worked is probably less likely not more likely to make better laws.

JustAHolyFool Tue 01-Jan-13 22:24:38

Do you know IDS personally, Xenia? You sound very confident as to his motives.

Of course the coalition are unpopular. It's got fuck all to do with what school they went to, really. But I resent that they seem to assume that everyone has the same chances in life when they just don't. I also don't agree with privatisation of schools, the NHS, railways etc, so of course I'm not going to like them.

You always seem to be so staggered that not everyone thinks the same as you. Well wake up. People have different views.

MiniTheMinx Tue 01-Jan-13 23:15:41

Well I think IDS is very much as I describe.....a thoroughly decent man but a deluded old fool. What is there not to like? well he is deluded, he is completely out of touch with reality, he hasn't grounded his policies by having studied or gleaned any facts about basic economics and he is a perfect example of someone who has sold out on his own class interest. The world now is a very different place to the one in which he landed opportunities, we have far less social mobility for instance.

Now, you can't propel people into social mobility where the conditions for this do not exist, you can't starve people into employment, you can't punish people for disadvantage or bad luck. What you can do, has been done before in the years 1945-1970, a time when IDS experienced many great advantages and when opportunity was abundant. WHY? because we had what could be described as a left/ or socially democratic large government, public ownership, a strong labour movement, strong financial regulation, higher taxes at the top, higher corporation taxes, investment into schools, NHS, LAs etc......

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