Most Tory freshers pretend they’re Labour

(65 Posts)
claig Mon 03-Dec-12 14:39:14

I knew things were bad, but I never realised just how bad.
I knew we had sunk, but didn't realise to what depths.

Why has no one called for a public inquiry - judicial or otherwise?

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/9714190/Petronella-Wyatt-I-was-bullied-out-of-Oxford-for-being-a-Tory.html

EldritchCleavage Fri 07-Dec-12 14:25:32

All my experiences of the Union suggested to me that it was a nasty pit of vipers: people stabbing each other in the back, clawing their way to the top. Most normal students despised the 'hacks' there. I wouldn't vote for anyone who'd come up through that system

I completely agree. My Uni was one where it certainly was ok to be Tory. And very horrible most of them were too. But so were the Labour hacks. We even had an SDP cabal (that's how long ago it was) who were smugly nasty as well.

What was so striking is that even in those 80s days of deep political division the politicos had more in common with each other (strident bullying, intellectual dishonesty, ego, rigidity) than they did with any of the less politically active students on their own side. It gave me an abiding distrust of politicians that I still have.

ttosca Fri 07-Dec-12 13:57:07

MrJudgeypants, I'm sure you're aware the situation is v similar in the UK.

Of course it is. I've told him that many times. The US and UK have similar ideologies, and since 1980 have transformed their economies in the neo-liberal mold of privatization, wage suppresion, growing pay gap, growing wealth inequality, etc.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Fri 07-Dec-12 10:47:53
MrJudgeyPants Thu 06-Dec-12 23:06:40

Still quoting American statistics whilst talking about how evil/useless/sociopathic the Tories are I see Ttosca.

Wake me up when you stop copying and pasting irrelevant bollocks.

ttosca Thu 06-Dec-12 13:55:51

Do you realise what an absurd question that is?

How could I possibly answer that without knowing anything about the company, or how much any of the employees are paid?

I can say, though, that 30 years of neo-liberalism has resulted in an enormous increase in the pay gap even within companies between the lowest and highest paid:

Wage Gap Between C.E.O.s and Workers Continues to Grow

The New York Times reported yesterday on a new study, which revealed that the U.S.’s top 200 C.E.O.s made an average of $14.5 million in 2011 — an average pay raise of 5 percent. The study also found that, for the first time, more than one C.E.O. — two — had nine-figure paydays.

Meanwhile, the average worker in the United States saw a pay increase of only 2.8 percent. C.E.O. salary has increased 127 times faster over the last thirty years than worker salary. To put this in perspective, the average Fortune 500 chief executive is paid 380 times more than the average worker.

www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/988597/wage_gap_between_c.e.o.s_and_workers_continues_to_grow

Cozy9 Thu 06-Dec-12 13:43:41

If you owned a company, would you pay the CEO and top execs less so you could pay the people at the bottom more? How much less, and how much more?

ttosca Thu 06-Dec-12 13:28:01

flatpack-

Rather than bleating on about bullying (Ha!) maybe the Tories need to think why they are SO unpopular.

Just going to tweak that a bit.

Rather than bleating on about bullying (Ha!) maybe the Tories Jews need to think why they are SO unpopular.

Straight out of 1930s Germany, that sort of thinking.

As pointed out several times now, being a Tory describes a set of behaviours, which is a legitimate area of criticism. It is not comparable to being black, or Jewish, or disabled, or anything else which is beyond people's control.

Let me use your own argument:

"Rather than bleating about bullying (Ha!) maybe people who set off explosives in Tube carriages need to think about why they are SO unpopular"

Does that make sense to you now? Is it clearer?

The Tories are hated because of their sociopathic behaviour, which is doing harm to millions of people in societhy, making them homeless and destitute, and sometimes killing them. It is perfectly legitimate to hate a group which engages in such behaviour.

I have no natural affliation with any party but I can honestly say the Tories make me feel they want to turn back the clock, sadly to a time when the rich were richer and the pooor were well and truly sunk.

Turning back the clock all the way to the last Labour government then?

No, turning back the clock to Victorian times, before the welfare state, and before organised labour. When men were the breadwinners, women stayed in the kitchen, and children worked up chimneys. That sort of thing.

With regard to the reason so many are on benefits of one form or another is because emoplyers (small and large, and Government itself DO NOT PAY a living wage). If work was renumerated at a level able to support a family I.e. companies prioritising workers over shareholders. The country could lose a whole tier of benefits

Oh, well you solved that problem pretty simply. All employers can simply increase the pay they give their staff, because they're all sitting on immense piles of cash, trying to decide what to do with it.

In some cases they most certainly are. Many larger corporates are making record profits. At the same time, the difference between pay at the top and pay at the bottom has never been greater in history. If the CEO and top executives were paid less, then the people at the bottom could be paid a living wage.

LDNmummy Thu 06-Dec-12 12:02:00

Claig posts bizarre and 'intended to start a bunfight' threads in other MN forums frequently.

slug Thu 06-Dec-12 11:51:07

See, this argument fails at the first hurdle. While being a Tory is something you can actively choose, being Jewish is something you inherently are.

You can't choose not to be Jewish. You can certainly examine your conscience and possibly choose not to be Tory.

flatpackhamster Thu 06-Dec-12 08:57:00

DorisIsWaiting

Slug- I think you hit the nail on the head.

Rather than bleating on about bullying (Ha!) maybe the Tories need to think why they are SO unpopular.

Just going to tweak that a bit.

Rather than bleating on about bullying (Ha!) maybe the Tories Jews need to think why they are SO unpopular.

Straight out of 1930s Germany, that sort of thinking.

I have no natural affliation with any party but I can honestly say the Tories make me feel they want to turn back the clock, sadly to a time when the rich were richer and the pooor were well and truly sunk.

Turning back the clock all the way to the last Labour government then?

With regard to the reason so many are on benefits of one form or another is because emoplyers (small and large, and Government itself DO NOT PAY a living wage). If work was renumerated at a level able to support a family I.e. companies prioritising workers over shareholders. The country could lose a whole tier of benefits

Oh, well you solved that problem pretty simply. All employers can simply increase the pay they give their staff, because they're all sitting on immense piles of cash, trying to decide what to do with it.

FellatioBellsOn Thu 06-Dec-12 04:55:26

OK, fair enough but there is such a shortage of houses where the owners/landlords are allowed or willing to take DSS tenants, due to either restrictions on their mortgage or horrendous experiences in the past that the LAs are forced to pay through the nose. I would dispute that the other much nicer flats in that area go for as little as 200 quid a week though. I doubt the difference is as much as you think it is.

Frankly it's ridiculous that one woman and one child are costing the public purse in excess of 2k a month in rent alone. I own a very spacious three bed flat in comfortable commuting distance of London, in a nice safe area and the rental value is around 700-800 a month.

Cozy9 Wed 05-Dec-12 23:20:37

Whichever way you look at it, saying "Tories are all sociopaths" is ridiculous. It's like saying "all Labour people are psychopathic control freaks". They aren't. Most Labour voters are decent people with misguided beliefs. Most people in this country, regardless of who they vote for, are good people.

ravenAK Wed 05-Dec-12 22:59:01

Over a third of the population aren't Tories, though, are they?

36% of a 65% turnout isn't one-third of the population, even in Osbourne-style maths.

& that's if you're identifying 'Tories' as 'people who voted Conservative in one election.'

LittleTyga Wed 05-Dec-12 22:36:59

fellatio Its in Paddington, Central London and yes I am absolutely positive. As the maximum a LL can charge in the area is £500 that is what they charge and the irony is its an ex council flat - which was sold off and charged back to the council at an extortionate rate - you couldn't make it up Fellatio!

ChristmasFayrePhyllis Wed 05-Dec-12 20:33:24

All Tories are sociopaths? You seriously think over a third of the population are sociopaths?

I'm afraid that is the point at which it becomes impossible to have a reasonable conversation.

Cozy9 Wed 05-Dec-12 19:37:39

Neither of us are going to change each other's mind, are we?

ttosca Wed 05-Dec-12 19:23:08

There's nothing "kind" about making people reliant on benefits. Eventually they won't be there anymore and people won't know how to support themselves.

Oh right. More Tory bullshit about 'being kind' by removing benefits from people and making them destitute or killing them. Right.

In actual fact, there are more unemployed than their are jobs. Removing welfare in the midst of a recession as an attempt to 'motivate' people to work is like kicking someone out of a hospital in order to 'motivate' them to cure themselves of a disease.

Stop trying to dress up nastiness as 'kindness'. Nobody believes it. The majority of people receiving welfare are either honestly looking for work when there is none, or are disabled/ill and cannot work.

Furthermore, a large part of the welfare bill goes to subsidising companies which are too greedy to even pay their employees a proper wage, so that families require state subsidies to survive.

This is just more of the same from the Tory party: nastiness, hatred, and contempt for the poor.

Cozy9 Wed 05-Dec-12 18:23:35

There's nothing "kind" about making people reliant on benefits. Eventually they won't be there anymore and people won't know how to support themselves.

ttosca Wed 05-Dec-12 18:14:31

You're not kind if you support economic policies which kill disabled people, increase child poverty, increase homelessness, and (according to 'HM' Treasury statistics www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/as2012_distributional_analysis_impact_on_households%281%29.pdf) enact regressive budgets which take even more money from the lowest 50% of households to pay off for the financial crisis caused by the richest.

Cozy9 Wed 05-Dec-12 17:41:50

All Tories are sociopaths? Please. Most of us are kind, hard-working people.

ttosca Wed 05-Dec-12 14:52:45

You miss my point. It's not about how you are referring to, it's about the way YOU are talking about another group of people, and it's horrible. No wonder freshers feel bullied.

As already pointed out, you choose to be a Tory, you don't choose to be female or black.

Secondly, being female or black doesn't imply you're a sociopath. Being a Tory does.

If we can't criticise people based on their behaviour, then on what basis can we criticise them?

GrrrArghZzzzYaayforall8nights Wed 05-Dec-12 14:34:34

MoreBeta - Romney's quote had nothing to do with government welfare/getting money from the government.

The 47% are the number of people whose incomes are so low that they have no federal income tax obligation as they are under the personal allowance given by federal tax laws. They all still pay local tax, state tax, petrol tax, vice taxes if applicable, sales tax, and so on.

Not all of these will be getting social security benefits (though a good number of those are pensioners), most get no government aid and for those that do the numbers are ridiculous (welfare in some areas is as little as $3 per person per day).

The fact that 47% of Americans aren't earning a living wage to the point the IRS thinks it's not proper to take their money shows a lot about the problems with the people running the businesses in America not with those on low wages.

ChristmasFayrePhyllis Wed 05-Dec-12 14:11:31

What do you mean by 'similar ... style'?

All my experiences of the Union suggested to me that it was a nasty pit of vipers: people stabbing each other in the back, clawing their way to the top. Most normal students despised the 'hacks' there. I wouldn't vote for anyone who'd come up through that system.

I stand by my point that there is nowhere in Oxford for ordinary Conservatives to talk sensibly about Tory policy. This means that normal students who vote Tory but don't want to get mixed up in OUCA lunacy don't have an outlet for activism in the way that OULC etc do. So that means that the only Tories who are really visible at Oxford are OUCA types, who are an embarrassment to the national party and don't represent most Tory voters.

People then assume that all Tories are like OUCA and attack anyone who votes Conservative without bothering to find out what they actually think on any given issue.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Wed 05-Dec-12 11:20:26

Phyllis - I'd suggest that the Oxford Union is the natural home of Tories maybe? Not exactly political, but similar...style.

claig Wed 05-Dec-12 11:17:10

Very good, balanced, reasoned posts nameuschangeus

'the labour group are very vociferous'

Remember that wise Tory saying: 'it is an empty vessel that makes most noise'

Bear that in mind when you listen to the Labour benches replying to Osborne's Autumn Statement later today!

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