Mumsnet Talk

Heard a tragic interview on the Today programme this morning with a woman whose two small children, the youngest (I think) aged three were killed by their father. She had begged for supervised contact as her ex was unstable and violent and probably suffering from a mental illness. She was ordered to hand her childern over to this man, even suspecting he would do them harm. He murdered them. I wonder whether the lawyers involved even realised what had happened, much less realised their part in this tragedy. and the lawyers keep making the money whilst the law this to continue it breaks my heart (this may not be the case in this case - I don't have all the details but it concerns me)

Dies anyone else feel really really really bloody angry about these cases (gender irrespective). What the bloody hell have any of the kids involved done to deserve painful deaths because their parents marriage broke down or whatever. Surely in most cases there are family that could take them on or guardians or even foster carers - well obviously. It's so bloody arrogant IMO.

Touches a nerve because exp is nuts. I don't think he'd hurt dd and I know he loves her but this is my worst fear and I have a divorce settlement to come yet - he already hates my guts - if he has to cough up a lot of £ (I really have no idea atm) he will be even more angry and irrational. He also has a history of alcohol/coke/steroid use that affect his temper. In my worst nightmares I wonder would he hurt dd to get back at me? Did this poor mother think her exh wouldn't hurt the kids?

I don't see anything about a restraining order, it says there had been police contact with the family, but exactly what that was about, I don't know. www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/s/2121519_stab_fathers_facebook_posts_about_marriage_split

We also don't know whether there were court-ordered access arrangements here or if it was an informal arrangement between the parties.

It is likely it was a factor, as neighbours say there was a restraining order against him preventing him coming within a certain distance of the house.

No I don't think that was the key point. Known violent parents having access to children is an issue, but there's no suggestion it was a factor here.

KRITIQ was complaining that the media have not utterly demonised every aspect of his 51 years of existence.

There's loads of things that can be rebutted in your post Skippy but I don't have the time right now. BUT one key point is that the courts generally don't order fathers to hand over children to violent people. They don't tell fathers 'oh, it doesn't matter if the other parent is violent, their rights are more important than the child's safety'.

Heard a tragic interview on the Today programme this morning with a woman whose two small children, the youngest (I think) aged three were killed by their father. She had begged for supervised contact as her ex was unstable and violent and probably suffering from a mental illness. She was ordered to hand her chidlren over to this man, even suspecting he would do them harm. He murdered them. I wonder whether the lawyers involved even realised what had happened, much less realised their part in this tragedy.

No it doesn't.

People want to understand why someone has done something so awful.

They want to know about those people's history and background.

Saying 'evil wicked woman-hating monster kills his own kids' isn't particularly useful.

If you look at the DM commenters, not known for their progressive attitudes, there is no suggestion at all that what he did was anything other than wicked.

Whereas when women kill their children sympathy is meted out, e.g., here

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/164004-woman-suffocated-her-new-born-baby-walks-free
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4903002.stm

Sample quote: "I hope she is not on here being totally and utterly judged "

It's acceptable here for women to kill their newborn babies because of course they must be ill otherwise they wouldn't do such a thing.

Whereas when a man kills his kids nobody gives a fuck about his background, he's just a wicked monster.

Here's almost the exact same story, but with the genders reversed
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a1553255-To-question-the-jail-sentence-for-the-mum-who-stabbed-her-4-year-old

In this story the facts are:

* the killer, a nurse, had a child with a man, who then, it appears separated
* she then shacked up with an ambulance chasing lawyer, to whom she sold patients' details, in breach of all medical ethics and patient confidentiality
* she was, rightly, sacked
* she broke up with her boyfriend
* she then killed her own child, and tried to kill herself.

And there's plenty of extenuating detail in the story.

The AIBU thread then says "She looks like such a broken woman"

Well of course she fucking does.

KRITIQ I don't think that headline is "dampening the negative impact of what he did" I think it makes it more shocking for readers. If anything people are more disgusted when ex-military do something like this.

Yes Skippy, that's an excellent illustration of the media trying to depict the man as good and "upstanding," and strongly suggesting that something the mother did/didn't do "provoked" him to kill.

The choice of language is interesting - "thrown out" gives a different impression than "asked to leave" or even "left." "Furious row" suggests an equal argument between two people (but she screen shot of the perpetrator's Facebook message said he denies her claim that he "pushed her," which would fall more into the category of assault.)

If you do an internet search for articles about similar killings, you'll find almost exactly the same template used for reporting.

The headline of this article is IRA Bomb Hero Dad Michael Pedersen Stabs Kids To Death. Describing him as a "hero" for something he did 30 years ago has the effect of dampening the negative impact of what he did at the weekend.

Oh God. Those poor children and their poor mother

I don't know how anyone could stab their child. I don't know how anyone could kill their child, but to stab them seems somehow even worse. You'd have to watch them die, it wouldn't be quick. Sorry to be graphic. This is so upsetting.

Yet another case of a parent killing their children
Poor family having to deal with such a tragic loss.
It's the children i feel for, their whole lifes ahead of them, snatched away by this evil.
There is no excuse whatsoever for parents that do this, they are selfish to think their children are theirs to kill and they don't bare a thought for those left to deal with aftermath.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2211181/Newton-Stacey-deaths-Bodies-Michael-Pedersen-2-young-children-near-Andover.html

"The 51-year-old father-of-four is said to have been involved in an angry break-up from the children’s mother, Erica, just weeks ago.

Neighbours claimed Mr Pedersen had been thrown out of the family home in Ashford, Surrey, following a furious row after he saw his wife of ten years kissing another man at a party."

Don't let the screen door slap you in the arse on your way out then. Sheesh.

Stand by what I said in my post.

Can I just cross reference to my post here at Mon 01-Oct-12 23:48:52. I need to get to sleep!

I think it's more telling that he and his wife had recently split up. He was having contact.

Back in 1982 he saw his friends killed around him. He too was injured in the nail bombing. He saw 7 horses killed, torn apart by shrapnel. His own horse Sefton's survival was a miracle.

One can only imagine what that experience does to your mental health in the long term.

"women are usually victims in some sense too

why are you so quick to defend male murderers? "

without a hint of irony

Not sure, but I've heard a lot of mothers doing similar this year. The last one also stabbed her child.

To put a knife into your own children. .....I can't find the words. The news are also reporting that the family were known to social services.
Those poor children, my heart just breaks for them and the rest of the family and their friends.
Is it happening more or do we just hear more about it with 24 hour news and social media?

Another selfish fucker taking their kids with them. Male or female makes no difference.

The Telegraph is reporting that he was a survivor of the IRA nail bomb that killed Household Cavalry soldiers and horses in Hyde Park. He was riding Sefton, the horse that became the symbol of the attack. That may be why you recognise him.

No.
He wasn't.

sorry Olivia

come and play verbi irregolari with me?