The offensive film

(50 Posts)
nailak Sat 22-Sep-12 01:23:48

curiosity got the better of me, I watched the film,

it is not funny or witty by anyone's terms,

it has no message behind it from the little i managed to watch,

it seems to purely exist to insult, offend, stir up hatred and mock. There is no film making merit behind it,

it is not particularly well shot or produced or directed,

and it is obvious that it has been dubbed and the actors had no idea what the final version would be.

does anyone agree or disagree with this? I mean seriously was there some humour in there that i couldn't see because of my bias?

This is not supposed to be a thread about the merits of free speech, or how we can mock one religion but another, or anything like that, but specifically a criticism (in the academic sense) of this particular film.

I have to admit I couldn't watch all of it for some reason, which I can't quite put my finger on, it was uncomfortable to watch to say the least.

but it seems there was no reason for it to be made other to get the reaction it did?

GothAnneGeddes Tue 25-Sep-12 14:09:46

You've stopped making any sense now. You asked for Muslim role models. I gave some examples.

After the ludicrous claim that winning a Nobel Peace Prize was "prosaic" and "ordinary", you've now descended into frothing at the mouth about people "crying wolf".

Very peculiar.

GothAnneGeddes Tue 25-Sep-12 14:12:05

P.S How would you know how they feel Islam influences their life? You were denying their very existence upthread, according to you, there are no Muslim role models.

I am completely frothing at the mouth
Am happy for any belief to influence a life but don't impose it on others.
Neither Mo Farah, nor Tawakel Karman have used their fame to preach. On the contrary.
I am muslim and I refuse that the reaction this stupid internet clip is representative of who I am.
So just marking my place in response to OP.
Massive overreaction from the ignorant manipulated masses. not in my name.

Catkinsthecatinthehat Tue 25-Sep-12 17:08:46

I do hold my prophet in high regard, to me and millions others, insulting my prophet causes immense revulsion. I strongly want to protect my prophet from criticism and want it forbidden.

I also do not believe that it is ok to criticise and insult my prophet...I cannot accept any disrespect of my prophet in the name of free speech.

And this is what terrifies me about Islam. I believe you have the absolute right to proclaim that the prophet is all fluffy bunnies and kittens. But you would like to ban me from publicly disagreeing with you. You - and as you state, millions of others - would like to punish me for saying that the idea he was divinely inspired is nonsense and that certain aspects of his life (child marriage etc) are pretty rotten.

The sort of Islam that we're seeing right now is a threat to enlightened, democratic values - free thought, free speech, freedom of religion and freedom from religion, and secular values.

Yes, the film makers were being deliberately provocative and they've got the reaction they were hoping for. People rioting in Muslim countries which are happy to suppress the practice of other religions and with media which frequently demonise other religious adherents such as Jews, as pigs and child killers. If they thought they could get the same reaction by making a video called "Buddha- what a tosser" I'm sure they would. But they wouldn't get the same reaction from the professionally insulted, would they?

Like it or not disrespecting Mohammed is free speech. To quote Stephen Fry, "You're offended? So bloody what?"

edam Tue 25-Sep-12 17:15:06

It is a real difficulty in relationships between (some) Muslims and everyone else: this demand that non-Muslims refrain from anything that Muslims may consider criticising the prophet. I don't see how any compromise is possible between the principle of free speech, which is the founding principle of Western civilisation, and the dearly-held beliefs of (many) Muslims that criticism of the Prophet is forbidden, not only for them but for others. How do you persuade someone who thinks their religion should bind others?

nailak Tue 25-Sep-12 21:38:13

laptop did you miss the Muslim women on the Olympics? are they not role models?

I dont know about where you are, but in my area we have muslim women as teachers, pharmacists, lollipop ladies, pcso's etc. plenty of role models.

nailak Tue 25-Sep-12 21:42:48

Nonetheless there are those who still chose to go ahead with depriving themselves of food throughout the Games. Many of Morocco’s football team have insisted on fasting even though their muftis have given them permission not to. At their first game against Japan over the weekend they lost 1-0 and were forced to defend themselves against the suggestion that Ramadan might be to blame.

Moroccan forward Noureddin Amrabat was substituted after 70 minutes. “Ramadan has little effect,” he insisted. “I have less power. It’s my religion and for me the only way is that you do Ramadan. It’s not an excuse to play a match. I have my religion and I do 30 days Ramadan”.

Somali 400m runner Zamzam Moahmed Farah would agree. “Ramadan is something we have to perform,” she said. “I’m just as fast and I will run and I don’t think it will affect me as an athlete.”

Thursday night the East London Mosque is holding a large iftar celebration for Muslims and non-Muslims which will be attended by the Palestinian Olympic team and other athletes. Iftar is the evening meal that marks the break of each daily fast and is usually celebrated communally.

www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/news/london-2012-islamic-olympians-embrace-ramadan-fasting-despite-uks-long-summer-days-ma

Extrospektiv Tue 25-Sep-12 21:43:33

Just tell them they are entitled to their religious views but not to impose them on others, and they will not be permitted to do so.

I notice you support abortion and same-sex marriage edam. You're also left-wing on fiscal policy. What would you say to people who think everyone should not be allowed abortions , everyone should be banned from having gay sex and imprisoned if they do, and benefits are a direct violation of God's command that "he who does not work should not eat" and so the government is illegitimate and they have a right to not pay their taxes so long as benefits exist?

Or to those much smaller numbers of Muslims who believe that as Allah rules the whole world they have an absolute right to kill soldiers, police, MPs of governments of any "kuffar/infidel" ruled country?

I don't see how blocking freedom of speech is any different to any other issue of a religious group demanding everyone everywhere obey their rules. The UK repealed its Blasphemy Act, which forbade certain anti-Christian material and was very rarely used, in 2009 as a result of opinions that it was entirely compatible with principles of non-discrimination and freedom of speech and expression in the Human Rights documents we have signed up to. If the religion which has predominated in Britain for a thousand years and is still officially privileged by our monarchy and House of Lords is no longer allowed to be protected by secular law from attacks, how can Islam or any other faith possibly be exempt?

nailak Tue 25-Sep-12 21:43:55
defuse Tue 25-Sep-12 23:26:48

Catkins , i am not trying to stop you from disagreeing - i simply do not want anyone mocking and throwing insults. If anyone wants to question, then go ahead. If you say that it is untrue that my prophet was divinely inspired - that is your right to say so. If you want to say that you dont agree with the young marriage, that is your right. I have no desire to punish anyone over anything

It is the deliberate insults, the deliberate provocation and the deliberate attack that really causes the distress.

Disrespecting someone's mother is also free speech. It is also a disgusting form of speech, crass, hurtful, immature and unnecessary. In fact, is disrespecting anyone even necessary? One can also put their points of view across without the need to be so inflammatory and rude. It is only good manners!

Hey Nailak, did not mean to ignore your posts but am gmt+8

Absolutely agree about those role models you mention but what the hell with fasting during olympic competition?
You prepare for years for the Olympics and decide to fast and make it very public to "explain" why you did not perform well?
Cowardice and hypocrisy and counter productive.
I'd much prefer they used their brains than their faith to explain that.
Not to mention some of those moroccan footballers are probably first class binge drinkers when not competing.

Plenty of role model in everyday life where I come from but I bulk at the patronizing stance of the very righteous councils of Ulemaa or self proclaimed "Islamist" political parties.
Its very hard to present one self as secular. Most muslims where I've lived equate that to being a "lesser" muslim.

That's what people like me can not understand. And am not surprised the west has no interest going beyond the falsely cohesive image they project of the "Uma".
There is not even the beginning of an attempt at damage control.
They should occupy the media space to promote a more positive image.

So again am saying the defensiveness is just posturing for lack of courage to address a very real problem of ijtihad.

Here is how to act and communicate effectively
http://www.france24.com/en/20120925-france-qatar-fund-invest-suburbs-business-economy-controversy-fears-muslim-unemployment

Could we not do more of this rather than go nit picking on the internet to find the next stupid thing to wage another self pitying war about?

crescentmoon Wed 26-Sep-12 13:48:16

"So again am saying the defensiveness is just posturing for lack of courage to address a very real problem of ijtihad."

what do you mean by that laptop? just interested

They dont want to use their neurones basically.

crescentmoon Wed 26-Sep-12 13:54:43

what is the very real problem of ijtihad you mean though? it interested me coming from a secular muslims as yourself.

as for the article you posted, il just put it up with a live link

http://www.france24.com/en/20120925-france-qatar-fund-invest-suburbs-business-economy-controversy-fears-muslim-unemployment

i found it very depressing actually. the trojan horse of islamism? im so glad im a British muslim and not a french muslim, the gulf states buy and invest money in the UK and they arent seen so suspiciously.

crescentmoon Wed 26-Sep-12 13:55:11

ha, i forgot to tick the convert links box as well! wonder what others think.

www.france24.com/en/20120925-france-qatar-fund-invest-suburbs-business-economy-controversy-fears-muslim-unemployment

edam Wed 26-Sep-12 13:58:27

extro, you are sounding a bit stalker-ish. I don't know why you've been hunting around my other posts to build up a profile of me. Very strange.

FWIW you asked what I'd say to people who hold different opinions to me. What on earth do you think I'd say? Other people are entitled to hold different views. That's the point of my post, freedom of speech is a cherished principle and means that people are entitled to voice their opinions.

Ijtihad means you are willing to use your brain, give others freedom to do so, listen to and revive the discourse between reason/science and religion as examined by bridging scholars like the aristotelian ibn rochd.

We are a far cry from that saddly

Edam, yes very uncomfortable stalking.

Crescent 13:54:43 agree.
For once the french seem to be doing the right thing in terms of miority integration.
And challenging muslims to participate in the debate.

crescentmoon Wed 26-Sep-12 14:36:24

what would islam look like today had the door to ijtihad not been closed in the 4th century CE? the Prophet (pbuh) said 'differences of opinion in my ummah are a mercy'. so iv never seen the different schools of thought, different schools of aqeedah, as anything except a good thing.

crescentmoon Wed 26-Sep-12 14:39:10

i think i must be reading a different article to you dear laptop. what are they doing right in terms of minority integration according to that article? challening muslims to participate in what debate? imagine how radical the change would be in deprived northern towns in the UK if the Qatari government decided to invest those millions in economic regeneration here. instead to me it seems like they got abused for it?

defuse Wed 26-Sep-12 20:46:11

Salaam, sorry for going off topic, but does anybody know what happened to the 'muslims are always offended' thread?

Good morning!

Am all for pluralism but I wish most of those schools had not cornered us all into the narrow legalist, normative conception of ijtihad.
Its a vision that stifles free will, spirit of enquiry, critical thinking and thus individual responsibility.

crescentmoon Thu 27-Sep-12 10:57:47

just read about mona eltahawy being released from custody in New York City today. iv not often agreed with her views but im proud of her today.

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/26/mona-eltahawy-released-new-york-subway

she's ace! brave and articulate and proud of her heritage.
She knows how to spin it and I wish we had many more like her occupying the air/waves.

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