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My twice exceptional [Gifted with Aspergers & ADHD] By 18 months the CDC had picked him up as gifted and ADHD [horribly-he dismatled the sink and managed to solve the child proof locks to climb out of a window to chase after a lawnmower he had spotted]. By 20 months the ASD was shining through too. By 3 He slept less than 4 hours in 24, was obessessed with trains but not just TT, he was into Castle Class Locomatives in detail. He would throw childrens books on the industrial revelution across the library for being 'wrong' [he could spot a mistake in a schematic diagram a mile off] He made his playgroup change the train posters as he spotted the wrong livery colours on the wrong trains and kept on at them. He loved lego [technic] but had lax joints and would scream in rage as he could not physically get his ideas into 3D form. He refussed to learn written english as he said it was none sensical and invented a numerical/coded recording system that took a Principal SpLD in ASD's to fathom out. He broke Ed Psych's with his mix of ability with maths and engineering but sudden concrete and literal take on language. He screamed- a lot mainly from frustration and word finding difficulties. He would use verbs to ask for things rather than nouns i.e. and uppydowny roundyround took me sme thinking but I worked out it was his Toy garage. Hail was hard rain, wellies- tubeyboots. Nouns he did get were long- his first clear word was aeroplane. He followed tracks in the sky and on the floor, he oraginsed everything methodical and systamtically. EVERYTHING had to be correctly in its place. He insisted on 90 degree angles on his toast and would measure the toast with a protractor. He loved abstract maths and devised plans for new engines, bridges, lifting gears and drove me utterly mad with his none stop dismantling everything he could lay his hands on nature. I had to physical stop him from turning his G.pig inside out to see what she looked like on the inside. His approach to death has the idea all you had to do was replace the battery and check the connections. It has been firey but he is now 16 and doing more GCSE's - I refussed to let him take A'levels early as he can be a pain when he 'knows' more than the teachers; instead he asked to do a BTec in engineering with all the sciences, higher maths papers, stats, and maths for engineers. He already has a heap of GCSE's and a place in sixth form and his sights on either Uni or a Higher apprenticeship- whichever one will pay him enough to upscale his ideas into reality.

I think you are right! My friend struggled to get her son on records when he was in reception, I think it is something to do with funding. Our GP, when I mentioned that DD is watched, said - what??? no way she is asd, she just misbehaves! Not to mention that when you put the problem in words it does not really sound as a problem, more like naughty behaviour, only people who deal with the child a lot can say the difference. I am lucky that nursery picked up the problem and so do you! Good luck with everything!

not heard anything yet but will give playschool a call later today if they've not called me. Yes i think its a good thing they are looking at him even if it comes to nothing as the playschool leader said if they needed something in place for when he starts school (sept 14) then the wheels would need to be set to motion ASAP. Alot of what you read people are having to go to HV/Docs are argue there is something wrong to even get looked at so the fact its been picked up without me having to do anything is good i suppose

We always thought DS1 was gifted. Exceptionally early talker, incessant questions, encyclopaedic knowledge etc. he is now 8 and bring assessed for AS / HFA. He doesn't perform exceptionally well at school as has SPLD in spelling and writing.

Again, same with my dd-sometimes she reacts on "chocolate", but sometimes she does not! And because there are times when she reacts people think she chooses when to react!

Yes, our nursery invited health visitor to observe dd, hv can come to see one child or few, does not really matter, I would not say that dd was worse at nursery, perhaps because she was not very active child that time, just liked to sit in a corner with her books, at home or in the nursery, but now, when older, I would say she is worse outside - she wants to be with children but she does not know what to do with them! Does not ask children to play or go with her, but just pulls them, can approach a child and starts striking her hair, even if the child does not like it. It is not aggressive behaviour but still annoying for some children. When out and about starts talking to every second adult! Asks names or age and then may say-I like you or I do not like you!

I personally see the interest from medical professionals as a positive thing, it may give you access to some of their facilities, like a quicker reference to some specialists. If, at the end, they decide that it is nothing wrong with your ds, good, but the waiting lists are huge, so it is better to be watched whilst child is growing, if it comes to the worst you will not loose time. Saying that, worst is not actually that bad after all, dd is very bright and who knows, may be because she is asd

Yes i'm pretty sure DS selective hearing is not deliberate. If hes absorbed in something i can say 'do you want some chocolate?' and he sstill doesn't hear me and he would not ignore that offer!
the playschool have someone coming to observe him tomorrow to see if we if/ what we need to do going fowards. Not sure if she's coming specially for him or if its a regular visit where they discuss any of the children they have concerns about. Apparently he'll be observed for about 20 minutes just doing what he would usually.

The report the playschool have writen he sounds alot worse than i think he is, but i think he is alot worse there than at home. Is your DD alot better at home?

None of our friends and family noticed anything unusual about our dd till about 4 probably, apart from the fact that she learned things quickly and generally was very clever It was only people who observed her on a day today basis (parents, grandad, nursery) felt that there was something not quite right. And now, when she is 5, it became obvious, as autsm is ultimately about social skills and just by looking how she behaves at school you can see that there is a problem.

ChazDingle, that is it-dd pointed too, but initially it was not with a finger but rather with all 5 fingers! I can see the difference now, as I have ds who is perfectly normal . She could also maintain eye contact.
Yes, they check hearing first thing to exclude ear problem. And yes, they may appear to have selective hearing though I do not believe they deliberately choose to react on one thing and ignore another, I think it is just easier for them to react on strong stimulus, but to third parties it often looks like naughtiness. And as I said, my dd does not respond when called, I always have to make sure I see her in the shops as she will not answer if I call her and children can disappear so quickly!

worried and lost> the thing that set this off was DS's selective hearing, he doesn't always respond when called. He's been taken for hearing test to rule out anything physical. Your point about saying things spontaneous (sp?) is interesting, although having thought about it DS does point things out, in fact i've always thought how observant he is, noticing things that i don't

Hard work. That was what ds1 was between 2 and 3.

TrucksAndDinosaurs, your ds reminds me of my dd soooo much! She is 5yo and to be honest it is only few months ago I came to conclusion that yes, she is asd (does not mean your son is!). And reason for that is that at home I saw a perfectly normal child, but all the problems were emerging only during the interaction with the outside world.

I would also mentioned few things related to ASD of which I was not aware before but that may be usefull. Asd children are not necessarily not interested in people, or avoid them. They can be over friendly with people. They can say something inappropriate, like-I do not like your voice. They may have delayed response or something that can appear as selective hearing. My dd does not respond when called. As she spoke ok I could not figure out that there was a problem but I did not realise untill quite late that she never said anything spontanious to me, like " look mummy", but she asked questions all the time. These are small bits which can also relate to asd.

My dd looked pretty normal at 2-3 apart from the fact that she did not really react when other child called her by name and was very clumsy and sensitive to noise (indirect signs of autism). She could play lego or sand for hour and could concentrate long (after 3yo it actually changed,struggles with concentration now). Adored, just adored books from 4 months. Could count objects till about 8 at 20 months and counted to 20, alphabet by 18 months (33 letters, she could not speak yet that time), started to read in her native language by 2.5, at 2.9 read fluently and could turn words of up to 6 letters backwards in her head (like god-dog)- most amazing thing for me! Could count to 100 by about that time or earlier. By about 20 months started to say words, no baby language but very clearly. She did not speak English that time but knew colours, numbers, alphabet, animats, etc in two languages. The most important thing is that she learned all these very easily (I have No 2 now, so can see the difference) and has very good memory.

And yes, she turned to be autistic, though she still goes through assessments and not formally diagnosed, but school confirmed that whatever happens they will treat her as ASD child. It became more obvious with age as it is really her dealing with people, so I would say she is not the most obvious case of autism. And she is still very bright and was consistently bright from about 1year old. She is 5 now and in reception.

DD walked at 9 months and said her first sentence at 14 months. The HV said it was unusual to be advanced with walking and talking and it was usually one or the other. This was just the beginning.

Starting school, her Ed Psyc assessment said her cognitive abilities were in the top 1% in the country and at the end of KS1 (Y2) she was in line with Y6.

But at the same time she was assessed by the Ed Psyc, in conjunction with school, as being 28.5 on the CARS scale and had (still has) some very definite ASD traits. She is socially awkward, emotionally underdeveloped, stuck in routines and hates loud sudden noises. But is not offically dx as being on the spectrum.

She's now in Y6 and about to leave primary school. She's still up there at the top of the class and will thrive and excel at secondary school. But I wouldn't describe her as gifted. She is making good progress on the ASD traits, but it's not clear if she has learnt coping mechanisms or is just growing up, albeit at a slower rate to her peers.

I think only time will tell, but IME it has been useful to consider some of the ASD techniques when dealing with DD as she definitely wasn't text book. (Unlike DS who completely is, in case someone says 'well who is text book?)

Oh Lady Mary,
my son is JUST like that. He could navigate for us (we had three seats in the front of the car and he sat with us from an early age) when we went anywhere and got really cross if we didn't go the way he thought we should (aged about 2). He MUCH prefers adult company and always does his own thing.
He is not aspie though although his big brother is (another one the same but much older now) and we sometimes despair of his awful propensity to have the last word in any argument.
He reads voraciously in two languages, is GCSE level in Maths and English and French (aged 12) and wants to build a nuclear reactor at home. Scary as he probably knows how.

Trucks, sounds very like my DS who got Aspergers dx at age 4. Some subtle language issues, good eye contact when he felt like it, minimal stimming and routines (had some but was quite flexible). Play and conversation not a two way street, good at reading simple face - smile, happy, sad but not good at subtle facial nuances at all (mostly gets them now, at age 16). It took him a long time to work out the use of "he" and "she" in conversation, maybe age 5 or thereabouts, even though he could tell you if someone was male or female!

3 of my dc have very high iq (obviously the meaning of that is debatable, but the 3 were each tested as part of testing for other conditions and at the request of their schools).
At age 2-3, by comparison to most age peers, they had huge vocabularies (we have video of one talking in full complex sentences on his first birthday), but one of them used his vocab in a slightly odd way.
All were very interested in shapes, numbers and the relationships between things, and obsessed with facts and technology, how things work. Their behaviour was quite a lot "busier" than most kids, and they slept a lot less!

They are teens now. One of the 3 is AS, one is dyslexic and the other has no diagnosis but is clearly (he acknowledges himself), near the diagnostic borders of AS. All are still doing very well academically with the older two at uni now (competitive courses at competitive unis).

We have a 4th much younger dc and its pretty clear already at age 2 he is somewhere on the spectrum too, but we are not at this point looking for a diagnosis.

Imo there is a relationship between very high iq and AS, in a lot of families, but that doesn't mean that all people with an asd has a high iq unfortunately (it would be lovely if that was true).

Chaz,my thanks for this thread. Very similar position to you and awaiting possible Dx of 2.3 yo DS who doesn't quite fit PDD or ASD or AS but is under investigation for them. 2.5 filmed session with educ. Psych. on Monday,filled in loads of questionnaires, seen developmental paed and now waiting for results and recommended interventions.

Thing is, DS just doesnt fit the triad of impairments for PDD/ ASD. H can cope with routine changes. He does do facial expressions and recognize them n ohers. He jokes, laughs, is silly for fun. Wide, not narrow range of interests, no stimming, good fine and gross motor skills, no sensory issues, eating issues, no health problems...but play is VERY self contained and can be highly focused for long stretches on whatever he is into, and he is socially absolutely not interested in other children and very shy with strangers. He is an only child.

It's all social problems. No natural smiling up, sharing and showing, no automatic collaborative reciprocal gaze, often chooses not to respond to name, ignores social overtures etc. But can be happily social with parents and trusted adults on his own terms. Treats play like fascinating work and gets annoyed if interrupted from concentrating. Cannot get enough of books. Wants to learn, learn, learn. Was terrible as a baby, wouldn't sleep, reflux, woke every two hours round the clock,screamed with frustration. Once he could communicate and run about he became so much happier. But he is not like his peers, won't play with his peers or even look at them or play near them, he stands out as the odd one out at playgroup, rhyme time, the park...he is off on one, not interested in anything other than what he is into.

Very very fast to learn anything he is interested in, astonishingly good memory for routes, stories - will fill in missing words of a story if i pause - without looking at book, after hearing it read only 2-3 times, and can still do so a week later. He can recognize words in a book and read them, can say numbers up to 50 if shown them, counts to ten and back again, counts up to six objects on a plate and can recognize if one or more removed and give new total, knows colours, shapes, various dinosaurs and all the trucks, started to talk in 2 word sentences at 2, now at 2.3 uses tenses, pronouns, plurals, dozens of verbs and adjectives, language is BOTH functional and echolalic - sometimes he seems very ASD, other times he is chattering on like a normal very verbal toddler, giving me a commentary on what he is doing, making conversation.

So I dunno. I just do not know. I mean, he's only 2. But all indications are early intervention can have huge benefits. He is meant to start pre school in September and at the moment I think he will HATE it. I need to help him cope. We manage fine with me devoting my waking hours to looking after him but how will he cope with the real world?

Sorry epic post.

hi again thanks for all the comments. I've also had a lot of comments on the special needs board which are really useful. Guess it is just a question of wait and see

Gifted can mean so many different things.

Dd almost totally uninterested in numbers (and still is). But was very verbal, could understand complicated reasonings, used different tenses and understood about the past and the future earlier than any other children I knew, could argue the hind leg off a donkey, always asking questions and challenging what we said (how do you know? did you read it in a book? did you read it in the papers?). Always very interested in people, made up stories, had pretend friends, lied quite convincingly.

When ds came along a few years later I couldn't understand what was wrong with him: he didn't seem to get what I was saying or get the point of my anecdotes (errr yeah, that's because he's a normal 2-yo).

Not sure whether you'd class my boys as "gifted", but both v. bright. Both aware of numbers and colours at a very early age.

I was concerned about my eldest at 2-3 years. He was very sensitive, poor eye contact, could not stand enclosed spaces (I couldn't take him into a shop, for example). He spent most of his time in various imaginary worlds, had horrific nightmares, would sit on a mat at nursery and refuse to join in because he was "on another planet with his real friends").

He's 9 now, working 2-3 years ahead in all subjects, sociable, sporty, popular, confident, large group of friends.

I guess you just have to watch, support and see.

I think it depends on the gift as such. I remember my little brother doing intricate paintings, roses with each petal defined etc, at 3, something I still can't do. He is now... an artist.

I was also a gifted child - my dad used to make me read The Times newspaper to dinner guests when I was 2 as a massive show off party trick. I used to have trouble with social cues. I still do, actually - I'm not very canny in social situations, and my mum used to think I was asd, although I am not. I am fine socially, I have lots of friends etc, but I can be a bit dense re picking up on social nuances. I also think I have ADD, which may impact.

Btw, I ended up being v bright, rather than gifted. When I last did an iq test, as a teenager, it was 166, which I don't think qualifies you to rule the world or anything, I think it is brighter than average but not genius. So I'm not sure how much the 'gifted' label means.

I was a gifted child and by all accounts a total nightmare at that age.
My first sentence at 9 months was "Me dood it" (Me do it). It was my motto.
I was willful, hyper, stubborn. Didn't nap, didn't let up ever.

Poor old Mum, reckons she used to hold my hand and "just feel the energy draining out of me into you"

I got kicked out of ballet for being just generally too much
Even in the 1980's when ADHD was not a well known thing; A LOT of people tried to encourage my Mum to get me diagnosed and medicated.

Bless my Mum, she banned me from yellow smarties but otherwise just put up with my relentless, draining, activity and constant demands for stimulation.

I really do take my hat off to her, because sometimes I see kids who remind me a bit of myself and people just treat them like a problem to be managed. I'm so lucky to have a Mum who enjoyed me and fought my corner.

Ds (13) has no diagnosis, other than dyspraxia, but he is without question socially & behaviourally compromised, with sensory issues too, so undoubtedly 'spectrummy', even if no-one has been able to tick enough boxes. He is a brainbox.

I think early signs of, let's say, 'ordinary' giftedness are different from early signs of spectrummy giftedness. The former just is never a problem - the child may be charging through the early readers but at the same time just as interested in creating mud forts with any other friendly child in reach. The latter you notice because of somehow how much more pleasure the child seems to get out of impersonal skills & disciplines over (and instead of) mucking around in a heap with others like puppies - there is a sort of single-mindedness, and the social-instinct-related pleasures don't seem very much like pleasures.

Obviously there are going to be exceptions, but looking back, that's what made ds different. To answer the other question, his key sign of giftedness (which I loved, and he's still like it) was that he never asked "why?" about something, he asked "is that because ...?" and gave his own theory.