Ill seeming fish- what can we do?

[OwlMother]

We bought a tank, heater, filter etc about three weeks ago and set it all up. Last week we took our water sample to the local tropical fish place and bought what the man recommended.

At this point I realise I sound a bit stupid, my defence is that I had the flu and wasn't totally with it. Thus, i don't actually know what we bought! They are little, silvery grey - the man said they were hardier than tetras which if what I'd planned to get. I think he said Goldie something?

So, we've had them a week and today one seems a bit dopey, swimming near the surface, not seeming to eat, it also has what looks like a red spot on it's nose and one near it's tail.

What do we do? DS1 is really worried about it, has got out of bed twice to check it. Any suggestions are gratefully received. Thanks.

How big is your tank? How many fish did you put in it?

Have you changed anything in the last day or three?

Red spots/streaks in a new tank sound like ammonia poisoning. Have you got a testing kit?

Regardless, do a water change (with dechlorinated water - have you got dechlorinator?) of 20% every day for a few days. Make sure you hoover the gravel and rinse the filter in the tank water, not tap water. The solution to pollution is dilution...

Otherwise, can you see anything sticking out the fish? Parasites can cause wee red marks, as can cuts and scrapes that get infected.

But, if it's hovering at the top of the water, it's probably looking for more oxygen. Getting an airstone or a bubble curtain will help, and looks pretty.

You can get melafix from fish shop - that's good for helping to heal scaly fish.

Your DS is a nice kid to be bothered by a fish. They might be dannios? Stripes like zebras, or spots like leopards? Or - black on the bottom with a white stripe - white cloud mountain minnows?

I assume you haven't cycled your tank? Have you heard of cycling? It sounds like you also fell into the trap of fish shops to just stock your tank without making sure the water is cycled aka safe for them. This takes 6-8 weeks! If you know about cycling, please ignore me. Otherwise I (or someone else) will explain tomorrow morning as I am far too tired. This will give you an idea Nitrogen cycle

Have you got a testing kit? Swimming near the surface sounds like a nitrite spike which happens at around that time after setting up a tank. Your fish can't breathe! They are gasping for air by the sounds of it.

You can still save them, but you are then doing a fish-in cycle. It can be done, but be prepared for possibly daily water changes to keep the water healthy.

As I said, I am sorry but I am off to bed now, but will have more info tomorrow.

Thanks for the advice. Will change 20% of the water tonight and again tomorrow. Will also try and get one of the air things you mention.

I'll have a look at the link about the nitrogen cycle. We'd been told by two different aquatic places that we would be ok to introduce basic/ hardy fish after the tank had been set up for a week or so.

It's just a tiny tank 25l and we just have three of these little ( nameless!) fish. They don't seem to have any markings on them- will phone and ask the shop what they are tomorrow.

Can't see anything sticking out of the fish, just the two red spots.

Haven't got a testing kit, will try and get one tomorrow. Thanks for all the help, will go and do the water change now.

Good morning

Right, first of all, don't be hard on yourself and don't despair. Many of us have fallen into this trap when we started out. Fish shops want to sell, they want you to buy their fish and magic potions. If they told you to wait up to 8 weeks until you got your first fish, you probably wouldn't have waited and thought what's the point in fish keeping.

When I started I had a similar scenario like you. Tank set up, water fine after a week (obviously, as nothing was in it), added tetras, added more after and bam - all dead within weeks. I had no idea why, but since then I have learnt a lot.

So, the nitrogen cycle. Basically, you need to build up enough good bacteria in your filter to cope with the fish waste. Otherwise their water poisons them. It goes like this (as unsciency as possible):

Fish poo and wee -> you get ammonia -> the filter gets rid of the ammonia with some bacteria -> you end up with nitrIte (note spelling) -> filter converts nitrIte to nitrAte ---> nitrate in low doses if fine for fish and good for plants

Ammonia and Nitrite can kill fish. Ammonia will be seen by red gills for example, nitrite means they can't breathe and gasp for air on the surface. Once you have 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite your tank is cycled. It means that there is enough beneficial bacteria in your filter to cope with the waste. All you are left with is nitrate which is good for plants, but you should keep it to a low level by doing regular water changes (I do 30% on all tanks weekly).

Ok, so you have fallen into the trap now that many have in the past. You are basically cycling your tank (getting enough good bacteria into the filter) with your fish in. You must get a test kit today. Check all parameters. Your ammonia will probably be high and your nitrite is probably off the charts. As soon as you have more than 0.25ppm you must do a water change, the more the better. Even if it is 90%, you need to get the toxins out to make sure your fish get a good chance at surviving. Add dechlorinated water, if you don't dechlorinate you can kill off good bacteria in your filter.

This will probably now take a few weeks. The first two are a killer, but you have a small tank (do I dare to say too small tank) and it should take about 15 minutes a day once you get into a routine. But this is the only way to keep your fish alive. After a while you will see it getting better and ammonia and nitrite will stay at 0 and you can finally relax and enjoy your fish.

Don't give up and it will get better. If you can, get a bigger tank as 25l is really too small. It would help if we knew what fish you put in, as if it is something like white cloud minnows, they are a shoaling fish and they'd be very unhappy as a trio.

Again, don't give up. Fish are very rewarding pets. I have started with one tank and I am currently fish-less cycling (with pure ammonia) tank 5 and 6. When we had that big wipe-out last year DH wanted to give up, but I started reading and learning and I am glad we stuck to it and did it the right way afterwards. Fish are really awesome, relaxing and calming. And I love doing my water changes on a Sunday afternoon, it's like a little ritual with some good music where the whole family is involved.

Will be back later if you have any questions, but I hope that helps and you got a first insight.

Thanks for getting back to me. Unfortunately the ill fish died in the night and has been removed.I changed about 25% of the water last night and gave the tank a general clean around, I'll change about the same again tonight.

I didn't manage to get to the shop today (it's the other side of town and I've been flat out all day). The other two fish seem to be exhibiting early signs of the Ammonia too. A bit red around the gills but still very active and not at the surface.

Hopefully I should get to the shop tomorrow and get the stuff. is this a comprehensive list?

1- ph testing kit
2-Airstone/bubble curtain

In terms of the cycling, am I right in thinking that because I'm doing it with the fish insitu I can only water change and test? no adding ammonia or any of the other things mentioned in the link. I think the fish might be Zebra Dannios, the link says they won't like being in small groups - the remaining two seem to be nipping at each other.

Thanks for all the help, I hadn't realised it was all so complicated.

Oh no, poor fishy :(

The testing kit you need is more comprehensive. You either get a full master kit (I recommend API) which costs just over £30. Or for now get separately Ammonia and Nitrite, and in the future the others. But it makes more sense to get the full kit straight away, as you will need to check Nitrates and ph in the future, which are included in the master kit.

Airstone will be helpful.

Yes, as the fish are in you don't need to add anything else. On the contrary, you need to remove the toxins with water changes.

Danios are a shoaling fish and need at least a shoal of six. Your tank will unfortunately be too small for this.

Here is a suggestion - could you return the remaining two to the fish shop and do a fish-less cycle and get fish once all is ready? I understand if you and your son are already too attached, but to be honest, you won't be able to keep a shoal in a 25l tank. They wouldn't be happy.

You could keep a betta/japanese fighting fish in that size of tank. They are happy on their own - but you'll need to be on top of water changes regardless.That's the purple/red/blue fish with looooong fins. They look great, and are kind of ninja fish - so they appeal to boys!

Or, cherry shrimps in a planted tank? They ar entertaining and will breed.

He can return the babies to the fish shop in return for fish gear.

My tank's a 180l tank, but the fish I have are dirty buggers (south american puffers) so the water needs to be monitored or they go a bit funny. The smaller your tank and themore fish you have, or the dirtier your fish are, the more work you have.

To be honest, I'd be complaining to the fish shop. They shouldn't have sold you three danios for an uncycled tank in the first place. Danios should be in shoals, with a fast water stream from a filter to swim in. That's not what the fish shop provided you with, the fish were going to suffer no matter what you did, that's bad practice.

How's your wee boy? It's not easy for them when a pet dies, even if it's only a wee grey fish.

Right, am off to gut my tank now. We've gotten an infestation of hydra, pah.

I agree with mybaby, you should actually complain to the shop. It will probably not change a thing, but at least you have made your voice heard.

I wanted to suggest a betta last night, but was too tired. Bettas are fab, I got one myself in a smaller tank. It's a 40l tank, but I also got a shoal of harlequins with him. They are happy to live on their own though, so 25l is the perfect size for one of those. And they are beautiful, real stunners. Mine loves coming to the front of the glass to say hello. Truly little characters. They are also hardy fish, so if you decided to stick to a fish-in cycle he should be ok.

Hi,
the two remaining fish seem to be doing quite well, although do seem to chase each other quite aggressively. The kids are quite attached to them, are currently watching them like hawks to make sure they survive.

It's interesting that you mention the Betta mybaby. My sister in law has exactly the same tank ( we copied her because she said it was a nice easy one for cleaning) and she has a Betta in hers plus a few tiny fish ( tetras?). I think we might see how long the two we have survive for with a view to getting a Betta if/when they expire.

I know what you're saying about complaining to the shop, I do feel a bit misled. Will psych myself up to complaining, in the meantime will look elsewhere.

I'll keep the daily water changes up for now, you're right mamapizza, it takes no time at all once you're in a rhythm.

Thanks agin for all your help, everyone. Would have been at a total loss with out the help.

Glad you are finding a way now.

Shame your kids love the danios too much already, otherwise the best solution would really be to return them, cycle the tank properly (fish-less) and add a betta who would love a 25l tank.

Keep us updated please!