Day 5 breastfeeding - it's all going wrong!!

[LittleMissSnowShine]

Hi All,

Sorry - just need to come and have a rant and ask your advice as well, please!!

My DS was born on Monday afternoon after a particularly gruelling, lengthy and difficult labour. He took to bf-ing straight away so even though I was on the fence about whether to do it or not I decided to go with it and see what happened. First night in hospital and then the second night back at home were really manageable and easy - he took a feed about 11pm, another one about 1am and then didn't want anything until about 6am.

Midwife was worried DS was looking a bit jandiced so she asked me to make sure he fed every 3 hours, which is what I did from Wednesday afternoon until last night (Thursday), with no problems and with great results - DS looks a lot pinker and more lively and alert. Then at 17:30 yesterday evening he was due a feed. He woke up, latched on and that was fine. But by 19:30 he was STILL feeding, without having had a break at all. I had a pretty major episiotomy done so I eventually had to take a bathroom break and go and clean my stitches. DS went crazy, even though I was only gone for 5 minutes and DH was holding him, screaming himself blue in the face. DS then proceeded to feed from 19:30 until 01:30 with no more than a 20 minute break.

My nipples are raw, I've had no sleep, I'm on antibiotics due to retained placenta, my stitches are killing me and I feel sick, tearful and guilty that I seem to have lost the hang of doing this. I breastfed DS at 01:30 and since then he's been fitfully dozing in the bed with me and DH because as soon as we put him in his crib he screams the place down. I gave in and gave him a dummy to suck at about 02:30 which has sort of quietened him down tho he keeps spitting it out after about twenty mins and then wailing again, so between that and the fact I'm very nervous about letting him sleep in the bed I've had no sleep at all in nearly 24 hours. Now my temperature is up, I'm bleeding a lot and when I tried to feed him again about 20 minutes ago I was crying with the pain.

I've had to resort to giving him a bottle of formula, which he's taken with gusto, gulping it all down. I'm wondering if the reason he's been feeding so much, that my nipples hurt so much and I've not been able to express any milk to give him is because my milk supply isn't enough to satisfy him?

Can I supplement with a couple of bottles of formula a day? Will this necessarily doom my attempts at breastfeeding?

I'm so disappointed because even though I wasn't 100% committed to breastfeeding from the outset, the last few days of doing it have been really lovely and a great bonding experience. But I'm in a terrible state physically, DS seems starving and really upset, and me and DH are now completely drained.

Your advice, experiences, ideas are all very much appreciated everyone - I'm at my wit's end!!

Hi there LittleMiss! Congratulations on the birth of your DS!

OK, first of all, one bottle of formula is not going to doom your attempts But if you start relying on it, then your milk supply will start to drop.

Second, has your milk come in properly yet? Your boobs will feel full and leaky when it does.

It is normal for your DS to feed A LOT at this stage as he is working very hard to get your supply going. The more he sucks, the more milk your breasts will make.

However, he doesn't actually need very much milk (his tummy is tiny, about the size of a walnut) and so he needs to eat tiny amounts at very short intervals. This can mean that it feels like he is feeding all the time.

I'm afraid it does hurt a little for the first few weeks, especially when you DS first latches on - but it shouldn't be agony the whole time. You should maybe get in touch with your local LaLeche League, who can advise you on your baby's latch (i.e. making sure he is not sucking on the nipple only, which will be very painful for you, and mean that he won't be getting as much milk as he should)

Don't worry about letting him sleep in your bed, or even on your chest. I know you will both be exhausted, so you need to do anything you can to get even an hour's sleep.

Hope this helps - hang in there!

BTW, your DS won't be starving and its is NORMAL for him to want to be held all the time - don't forget, just 5 days ago, he was all snug and warm inside you, and he will miss that feeling.

That is why babies are so cuddly - it makes us want to cuddle them, which is what they need, if you see what I mean

Oh, darling. That sounds terrible. For you, I mean.

It might, however, be entirely normal for him (and if it is, it will be really temporary - he's not starving, he's just ordering in an increased supply). But I can't judge that on the internet, is there a HV or LC you trust? Someone who can see if he's having enough wet/pooey nappies, and that his weight gain/loss isn't problematic?

From what you've posted, there is absolutely no evidence at all that your milk supply isn't sufficient. Unless you've had breast surgery in the past or some other major medical thing, it's actually very rare to have a general lack of milk supply. It feels like that's what's going on, and I think everyone worries about it in the early days, but honestly the cluster feeding and the screaming don't imply that at all. That's really normal newborn behaviour.

I don't want you to think that it's going to be like this forever, nor to feel guilty if it's not what you want to do. But so many women worry about supply when this happens, and it's such a shame. It gets better very fast, he'll become more efficient, your breasts will supply his needs, nothing you are saying is indicative of a problem. And incidentally, five-day-olds very often hate sleeping in cribs, too - that changes as well.

But that doesn't mean that it's not hard, and I'm sorry that you're feeling so tired and your labour was so difficult. It can't help. But please don't feel that it's all going wrong, or that you need to be disappointed. From the sounds of it, it's all going right - it's just incredibly hard on you.

Hello - I just wanted to say that what you're describing it totally normal and expected for the first few days of breastfeeding. I know this doesn't make it any easier (and totally remember the desperate feeling it gives you!) but it doesn't mean you're not getting it right or your baby isn't getting what he needs - it sounds really normal and is definitely part of building up your supply. He's basically putting in his 'order' and getting comfort at the same time as their suckling need is so strong at this stage.

Are you getting plenty of wet nappies? If so then I bet your LO will be absolutely fine. Are your boobs feeling full and leaky yet? It may be that your milk isn't fully in especially if you had a traumatic delivery and still retaining fluid (mine didn't come in until day 8 and I did have to supplement during this time). If it's not then pumping after daytime feeds can help speed it up (I know that sounds daunting but wouldn't need to be for long). A breastfeeding counsellor can help with this.

I don't think sleeping in your bed is a terrible thing either. As long as you make sure to make it as safe as possible (no gaps between mattress / frame / wall, not close to edge, covers can't go over him by accident etc) then it can be a way to get some rest and sleep. If you want to encourage him to sleep in his cot / moses basket then a few things might help:

Raising up the end of it a little so he's tilted just slightly with his head being higher than feet.

Swaddling safely so he feels snug.

A white noise machine or CD, just slightly louder than you might imagine, it sounds similar to the womb.

Best of luck - I totally know how stressful it can be and it sounds like you're doing a fab job. Sorry for very long ramble..

and CONGRATULATIONS, sorry I forgot that bit :)

Thanks ladies, I knew I could rely on MN for some good advice and support.

Got him over to sleep at about 5 after a bottle of formula. I'm about to wake him up now (god help me!) and offer him a breastfeed. I'm still really sore but I'm hoping a few hours will have helped things and I should be able to manage, even if it's sore.

The midwife is coming out today and I'll get her to check in case it's a latch problem or maybe thrush so it doesn't get any worse. DS was weighed yesterday and while he has lost weight since he was born on Monday, I think MW said it could up to 380g and it was less than that. The skin on his lips is a little dry and I do think he could have more wet nappies but he is having some and she thinks he's looking ok so I have to hope that means he's getting enough nutrition from being breastfed.

But I'll keep the formula on stand-by in case it's required again tonight - it was just so horrible last night because we had no idea where the bottles/formula where and then what to do with them once we found them. 4am is not a good time to be trying to get your head around that! But I'm really relieved to hear that giving him one bottle hasn't doomed all our attempts.

In fact, after having had even just 3 hours sleep and having read all your encouraging posts I've realised that I really do want to keep trying to breastfeed and I know I 'll be really upset if it doesn't work out. So at least I know how I feel about things now and that should help me to try and keep going.

Since we were caught a but unawares last night, I think I'm going to need to buy (or send MiL to buy lol) some bottle feeding paraphanalia this afternoon like a microwave steriliser etc. Does anyone have any suggestions of formula milk which is most like breast milk IFKWIM? And brands of bottles which are most 'nipple like'? And a good manual breast pump so I can try expressing maybe over the weekend? I know that obviously nothing is going to be a real substitute but I just want to be sure that if we do have to rely on formula from time to time that we do it in the most non-disruptive way to DS's feeding pattern as possible...

Thanks again everyone, you've been really helpful, kind and supportive :)

LittleMissSnowShine - phew, bad night :( :(

Good to read your midwife is coming today.

No, the formula you gave will not mean the end of breastfeeding.

But formula and breastfeeding are not good bedfellows in these early days. Formula is not a good thing for breastfeeding - pure and simple. It is disruptive to breastfeeding and the majority of times, it is really not needed.

Dry skin on lips? Normal for a new baby.

You need the midwife to help your baby attach without causing you pain. Ask her about biological nurturing positions and check them out here on buy googling.

A baby of this age will want to stay close, on or near the breast, for most of the 24 hours and will object to being expected to sleep away from you. This is normal, and unrelated to breastfeeding or formula feeding. He may seem to settle better after a bottle, but this is because formula has a soporific effect - it is not really physiological. Babies sleep for longer as it takes longer to digest - not good for bf to sleep for a long time.

Hope the midwife helps. The key to a better experience for you is being able to bf without pain, so do make sure she takes you v. seriously about this. :(

No formula is that close to breastmilk. Various formula companies say that theirs is the closest to breast milk, but they all use different ways of working out so that they can say that.

Have you got lansinoh in the house?

Do be aware that relying on formula, as the others have said, could mean that your supply is affected. At this stage, your baby will still be stimulating the milk supply.

If you're not sure if he's having wet nappies, we were told to put cotton wool in the front of his nappy so the wee was totally absorbed...

*wasn't totally absorbed

If you do want to use formula to supplement (especially if your milk isn't fully in) then there's ways to do it without using a bottle. A breastfeeding counsellor (I recommend one as HVs can be hit or miss on BF) will help you with a little syringe or tube you tape to your finger so you can give the formula without him getting used to a bottle nipple in the early days. You can even tape the tube to your nipple so he suckles but is a getting a little formula at the time (less complicated than it sounds).

I would recommend renting a hospital grade breast pump as this will help your milk come in quicker (if it hasn't yet) and you could use it while giving your baby formula so that your boobs get the message that the milk is needed. NCT hire them and the Medela Symphony is a good one, easy to use and very comfortable. If you wedge the bits into your bra it's hands free too :)

Oh yeah - forgot to add - I don't think which brand of formula matters much,it's more the method of delivery really. If it helps, I supplemented with formula in the early days and after two weeks we were exclusively breastfeeding - and still are at 18 months. So - you're doing a fab job hanging in there!

Not much to add, he sounds very similar to my dd in the early days.

Only to say get some Lansinoh for the sore nipples. Hopefully by now your MW should have prescribed some. It's the best ever for sore nipples.

Thanks everyone! Yesterday was much better - after the hell of the day before it was really quite painful still but finding Lansinoh invaluable and the antibiotics I'm on seem to to be kicking in a bit to help fight off the infection which has been making me so shaky and shivery.

Milk seems to definitely be in now and DS is a lot more satisfied after a feed and inclined to go down for a sleep, even just for a little while which is great for being able to catch up on rest or have a shower etc.

Still finding the first 15 seconds or so of a feed agonising - not sure if it's the chapped nipples or just the let down reflex but it seems to pass. DH went out yesterday and bought us a half price bottle steriliser, manual breast pump and a few cartons of ready made formula milk in Tesco and just knowing I have everything I need on standby made me a lot calmer last night, tho thankfully they weren't needed in the end and hopefully they won't be needed until we decide to wean. It's just good to have something to boost your confidence when it's dark outside and you're feeling exhausted...

Anyway, thanks again for all the help, advice and suggestions. Really made such a difference when I was at the end of my tether the other night and I was going to just give up on breastfeeding entirely. Really glad to have gotten through another day and I'm not dreading feeding today either - really hope it's going to work out :)

Glad you're feeling happier and better .

Feeling shaky and shivery is a sign of mastitis so try hot flannels on your breasts and keep feed, feed, feeding! Good that the antibiotics are helping too.

The pain at the beginning of the feed does sound like your let down and good that it passes(I used to count slowly to ten to get through this)

Well done for sticking with it- just remember,these are the hard, hard days of breastfeeding. It won't be like this forever, it just gets easier as your baby gets older.

WELL DONE YOU!!!

I am a bit of a b-f militant and get so upset when people stop because 'they're not producing enough milk' which as someone else said is such an immense rarity.

The pain can be horrific but as I think you're finding, once you both get used to it it does get better.

I really hope things continue to get better and that you keep going as long as you feel comfortable to - every day brings benefits to you and bubba.

Well done again for continuing through this horrific period.

xx

LittleMissSnowShine - Congratulations on your new baby. It's wonderful yet soooo exhausting, isn't it?

What are the Drs doing about the retained placenta? Having retained placental material can delay your full milk supply coming in. See here.

truthsweet - really interesting, i had no idea about that. the midwife wrote in my notes that she thought the placenta had been delivered whole but the bleeding, clotting, pain, high temperature and general flu-y sort of feeling indicated to the community MW who has been checking up on me everyday that something wasn't right so i'm on a 5 day course of antibiotics that aren't supposed to interfere with breastfeeding. but if i still don't feel right, then i'll insist on a scan and getting to the bottom of this...

crikeybadger - yep, biting lip and counting to 15 seems to get me through the initial pain so i'm assuming it is let down which is causing it. ouch!! but at least it goes away in the end

anyway, off to have a very brief doze before evening shift of feeding, changing etc kicks in! thanks again everyone x

LittleMissSnowShine - definitely go back. Antibiotics won't get rid of the piece of placenta (assuming that a piece was left behind) but wil stop the infection that can occur from placental matter left in the womb. I'm not sure what they would do to get rid of it though (D&C/scrape?)

duh sorry littlemisssnowshine- I missed the bit about the retained placenta.

Hope you get a good night.

Sounds like you're doing really well! Also - the bottles and sterilizer (and pump!) will not be wasted money if you decide to not go the formula route as you can use them later on to feed expressed milk if you want :)

LMSS, sorry to hear you're having a tough time. I frequent the breastfeeding threads on MN for support and find a lot of the stuff very helpful - if it wasn't for MN I'd be pretty ill-informed regarding breastfeeding and might have given up by now.

Well done for persevering through the pain. I feel for you and I know that as a fellow NI-dweller, the culture round here does not particularly encourage breast-feeding. Of all the ladies I met in hospital during my one-week stay, none of them bar one (and she was foreign) even attempted to breastfeed. It's not the norm, and that makes it a more isolating expersince (I find).

I remember thinking when DD was two weeks old that I'd never make it to one month (because it is so all-consuming and frankly exhausting) but I'm still bf-ing at six weeks and setting myself a goal of two months...

I really feel your pain. My dd is 3 weeks & every day at the end of the evening cluster I'm in tears begging her to go to sleep. The breast feeding classes never mentioned cluster feeding and how difficult it is to deal with! I had a very long labour, failed epidural and ended up with emergency c section after so I understand how awful it is to deal with this at your lowest ebb physically and mentally. It is absolutely desperate but it does get easier.

Things that have helped me:-
Lansinoh before and after every fees
Nipple guards to get thru the pain
Wearing nipple shields between feeds
Acceepting the cluster feeding and setting myself up for the long haul with magazines/tv/Internet
Meeting other new mums via Nct who are also finding breast feeding harder than they imagined possible!
Talking to dh about how lonely and isolating the night time cluster feeds are.
When she's crying for more, but I have to eat/ shower/ look after wound, remember that she has only just fed so I'm not starving her, she will stoop crying as soon as I feed her,and I have to look after myself as well or I can't look after her. I explain all this to her and it makes me calmer.

Hope some of that helps and ijope it gets easier soon :-)

Hope it all calms down for you soon

Hello again ladies - well my DS is 10 days old now and breastfeeding is actually going pretty well now!

Mamamary - I know, NI is not v breastfeeding friendly, I was the only one in my room in the hospital who even gave it a try and most people look at me like I'm mad when I tell them I'm trying it!

I'm not sure how longterm I will breastfeed for, but I'm managing to do it with horrible episiotomy stitches and while on strong antibiotics so I guess these are probably the hardest weeks. If I can make it through to about 8 weeks I'll be really pleased, and it's already obvious that its really benefitting DS - his jaundice has completely cleared up, he's gaining weight and he's really thriving.

Thanks again for all the help, support, guidance, advice etc - this forum is invaluable for nervous, end of tether mums like me!! Never would have made it through to day 10 without the encouragement

That's brilliant news LittleMiss SnowShine

Once you get through the early days, breastfeeding will be sooo much easier.

Take care.