Normal naughtiness, sensory issues, something else?

[systemsaddict]

Sorry this is really long, but I could really do with some advice. My son turned 4 at the end of August and started Reception in September. We have always had some behavioural issues with him at home, but the health visitor never thought it anything to worry about as he was broadly OK at nursery. Since starting school he has got worse and worse and I am wondering whether I should pursue some kind of assessment / ed psych / what?? or whether this is just normal tired 4 year old boy behaviour, exacerbated by being so young.

He is incredibly resistant to most everyday activities, including:

• getting dressed, every item of clothing causes a battle / running away / hiding behind the sofa;
• going to the loo, he always holds on till too late, has wet pants, refuses to go if I suggest it, and we have only just cracked poos in the potty with the help of Lactulose and long potty-sits after breakfast and dinner;
• sitting at the dinner table;
• eating a lot of foods, particularly anything at all that is mixed or at all slimy in texture;
• getting into the bath, and then, once he's in, getting out of the bath;
• having cream on his eczema;
• pretty much doing anything when he's asked to.

At school, he doesn't line up outside school, or sit quietly on the carpet for the little time they have to, or do anything he is asked to without being constantly pushed - teacher is clearly frustrated with him already. He's bright, reading already and working at the top of the class apparently, despite being the youngest. The teacher didn't seem to think this was such a good thing though, it seemed more that it highlighted his behaviour - he is bright enough to know how to behave but chooses not to. OK working one-to-one at school but can't work in groups.

He alternates between being incredibly silly and being incredibly frustrated, at which point he gets really worked up, lashes out, scratches us, kicks, screams, sulks, and can get really hysterical - sobbing on the floor in a foetal position. He gets SO angry. The only way I can get him to do anything is to threaten to delete his favourite TV, Sarah Jane Adventures or Dr Who, about 500 times a day. I feel like home life is a constant battle. He can get really worked up if I try and talk or get him to talk, and shouts furiously 'Stop it with all those words mummy!!'

As a baby, he was very quiet, still and observant - much more so than the other babies his age - but could also get very worked up, especially if tired, when he would bite and headbang. Needs loads of sleep, only dropped his nap when he started school. Has always hated getting dressed / undressed, screamed and fought for every nappy change, bath, cream. Walked late, potty trained late, talked early. Has had some strange phobias - sloped streets, hand driers. Absolutely has to win at every game or there is a very dramatic meltdown. Is affectionate, makes eye contact. Sometimes can't bear to be touched, other times he's all over me and completely over-the-top in my space. Spends half his life hanging upside-down.

SIL is a paediatric occupational therapist and has suggested already we get him assessed for sensory processing issues, but I wouldn't even know where to start in doing that, or whether she's just seeing that because, well, it's what she's trained in.

God this is far too long, despite extensive editing! I would really appreciate any thoughts, if anyone has got this far!

Bump for you. You sound very concerned, and I have no experience. Would it help to also post this on special needs?

Thanks for the bump CaptainNancy - I wasn't sure whether the SN board was just for people with a diagnosis, if you see what I mean!

i suggest most 4 yr old have alot to take on going from being a toddler to going to big school so young, i suggest that you strip back everything that you are having an issue with and start again one at a time, maybe he feels pressured and finding the only way to cope is to lash out, think to yourself what are the main isses that need addressing first and concentrate on them, if you threaten to take something away make sure you do it and make him aware that when he shows you the behaviour you are after that is when he will get it back, it will take time but dont give up. BE STRONG, CALM and you will get there

Thanks shobbs, that's helpful. Yes I think the transition to school so young is a really tough one; this is why I keep wondering whether this is standard-issue difficult behaviour at this point, or whether there is something else that I'm missing. He definitely does feel pressured; and we did make progress on the poo thing by focusing just on that.

I think you might get some very helpful answers if you post this in the special needs area. You may find that people there recognise some of your DS's habits in their own DCs. They will also be able to tell you how you go about getting ed psych assessments etc.

my lil boy is 3yrs 10months and starts school next september at nearly 5, i no when loads of issues all at once can get you down, just concentrate on hitting etc and try to catch the behaviour before it gets to the point of hitting, i found that telling my son " we have 5min then i wold like you to get dressed" helped with my son, he was always playing etc and found that would start off a tantrum at least he knows whats coming and he'll get used to it. the same at a park if we had to leave i would say 10mins and then its time to go and count down, it doesnt have to be exact etc etc,

i think that going to the occupational thearapist is a little too soon, remenber hes young and yes he might be having difficulties he needs the love and security of you first.

one day try and ignore any mistakes he does at home etc and take the time to spend quality time with him. i promise you he'll love it and show you by making you proud x

I have two boys with sensory issues (related to their autism). I'm not a professional by any means but a lot of what you write certainly sounds similar to the experiences I've had with my two boys. I also have a 4yr-old with no SNs who has recently started school.

One of my boys is classed as sensory-seeking and so does things like hanging upside down, headbanging, strong bear hugs etc to get more sensory input. At the same time he is very sensitive to certain materials touching his skin so can be a nightmare with clothes and dressing. If you google for "sensory seeking" you should get a better picture of what kinds of behaviours this can lead to.

Both boys have needed help with social skills. Working in groups can be difficult for them, not only because of the social element but also because of sensory issues, eg too loud, too close to them. They also get upset if other children don't follow "The Rules" and do something they shouldn't.

It's worth asking your GP for a referral for an assessment with a Paediatrician who deals with developmental issues. They will be able to assess your ds and see if there is anything he needs help with.

Feel free to join us over on the Special Needs board. No diagnosis is needed. :)

You might find that things have got worse partly due to the stress and exhaustion of him starting school. Can he do half days if he is having over load? Can you talk to his teacher, HV and the GP about assessments?

I am with coppertop-pop over to special needs as lots of people with really helpful ideas about sensory behaviour. Might be worth borrowing/buying "An Out of Sync Child" which is fab. My DS is also ASD/dyspraxic and sensory issues. Whilst it may be simple immaturity causing your DS issues, it sounds to me as if you are sufficiently concerned to get an assessment. Once I found out WHY DS was behaving as he did, it was som much easier to help to support him with sensory "diets" (ask your SIL-how fab having a paed OT in the family!!!) etc.
Of course if its all ok, then no worries and nothing lost but I would highly recommeny early assessment and intervention-after a hellish year in reception with much the same issues as your DS, we now have a happy settled little boy in Year 1-with lots of support he is actually able to learn appropriately.
Good luck and do come to SN boards if you want to...

Thanks all oddgirl a happy settled boy is what we're after, would be a dream come true! I'll try posting in SN now.

Just a quick post, but I wonder if he might be simply too young for school - if he is only just 4, and I know this is a sensitive subject, but a lot of kids, especially boys, are simply unable to do what is expected of them. We held DS back a year for this reason, in fact he sounds a lot like your DS, and I dread to think what would have happened if he had started school at 4. You might find a lot of his 'problems' might fade away as he matures?

Do you have a sympathetic head and form teacher? Can you ask if you can withdraw and start again next Sep? Would this be possible domestically for you? I think the law is on your side as they (Aug births) don't have to be in school until the Sep after they turn 5.

Hope this helps x
If this isn't possible, could you cut his days? Some kids at our school in Rec have done half days 'til Xmas, some 'til Feb half-term if they have been finding it difficult. It isn't official school policy or procedure, more of an ad hoc arrangement.

Thanks cats07, yes I think that may be part of the issue - we thought of holding him back - but I was just as worried about him starting in year 1 and having to cope with a more structured day without having had the space and time to learn how to behave at school. Plus he was full-time at nursery, so that was an even longer day! but I think less was expected of him there. If he's still struggling after half-term I might talk to the teacher about shorter days for him; then he'd be able to nap in the afternoon, which would definitely help.

Hi Systems,
I meant holding him back completely, eg starting Rec again next Sep. This way he would also be the oldest in the class, which from experience seems to be much more acceptable to kids than being the youngest.

Totally agree about less being expected of them at nursery - far less time sitting on the carpet for a start!

Starting Rec next September would have been ideal I think cats, sadly we can't do that here I didn't realise there were LEAs where you could, we could only have kept him out and started straight in year 1. Even a January start would have been better for him I think.

Systems, if you were keen on pursuing this it would be worthwhile looking at the actual legal wording of the relevant Act; our LEA is NOT keen on this as an idea, but legally you can keep them out 'til the Sep after they turn 5. It is then at the discretion of the individual head as to whether they go in at Y1 or Rec. Obviously in your case the biggest problem is going to be the administrative disruption this would cause the school and the LEA, so bear this in mind if you get very negative initial responses. You might try chatting to the nursery teacher, getting some sort of assessment done to help build your case. It might not be easy, or possible, but if it feels like the right thing for your DS, and is manageable for your family, it might be worth your while.

System, he is very young to be at full time school. Why don't you ask if he can do half days? That way both he and the teacher will have respite from each other iyswim.

If he was still having naps until school then this may partly be pure exhasution. I know my older two both went through phases of temper tantrums/extreme mis-behaving when starting school because of this and I think it is extremely common.

I do think though that you should push for an assessment. If there is nothing wrong you would have peace of mind, if there is you can get him help. Its a win win situation.

It must be exhausting for you, I'm sending you unmumsnetty , you deserve them.

systemsaddict, this sounds very similar to how my DS was when he was 4. With hindight, he wasn't ready for school until, and was very, very tired. Things did improve in the last half of the summer term.

you are very lucky to have a SIL who has sugested he has sensory processing issues...it took me years (and Mumsnet) to figure out what was going on with my DS.

While we never had a formal assessment,but I do think it would save everybody a lot of heart ache if you can get one no. Someone I know approached her GP, and was able to get a formal assessment for her child when he was 5.

There are also a huge amount of books on Amazon about sensory processing issues in children, and how to best deal with them.

For what it's worth, my DS is now 11, and copes very well with day to day situations which would have once resulted in a melt down. It won't always be like this.

Hi Systems

My DD1 is a July baby so was very young when she started reception last year. She's now in yr 1. Her behaviour invariably deteriorated towards the end of each term/half term as she got more and more tired. I also think some children struggle with becoming institutionalised in the way they need to, in order to cope with school. Your children both sound like wonderfully feisty, strong-willed individuals so maybe some teething problems were inevitable .

Personally, I think children start school ridiculously young in this country and that we expect an awful lot of them when they are still very little. For my DD1, I wanted to wait and see if she outgrew some of her more "challenging" behaviour. I thought about home educating her and I think that there are elements of that sort of life that would suit her, but I decided that I would be really crap at it!

In my DD1's case, she has a neurological issue which was identified before she was born, so it has always been there in the background when we've been worried about her. It's just coming into focus now as her teacher has put her on the SEN register and I think that it is inevitable that the level of intervention will be stepped up, so my hand has been forced in terms of how we deal with her difficulties.

If you are able to get your son assessed for sensory issues in a way that doesn't cause you or him too much anxiety, then I guess it's a good idea to go ahead. We are thinking of engaging a psychologist privately so that if/when the school brings LEA people in, we have some idea what we're facing and can filter out some of the layers of bullshit non-educational influences like budget, time pressure etc that might affect the way they present their findings. I would also feel better having a HCP report directly to me rather than to the school. So if you can use informal channels to get some initial advice, where you are the client, that's what I'd do.

Hi there!
To put your post in perspective...

My son has just turned 4 last week- so he's in the year below, nursery still.

He sounds similar to your son in some ways- is very bright but gets incredibly tired and is perhaps "behind" in some social behaviours in comparison with his peers.

Quite a few of the behaviours you describe early in your post sound like my son on a tired day. He is a bit jekyll and hide child, when tired really tricky, when not a complete joy. Trouble is the tiredness can accumulate and then if you're not careful you see the behaviours as the child rather than behaviours.

My son is coping pretty well at nursery but he's only there in the mornings 3 days- he does 2 complete days as we have flexible sessions. He gets very tired on these days but is gradually coping better. I can't imagine him doing 5 full days. That would be DISASTER (does your son?).

Just remind yourself how young he is, and that being bright doesn't mean that your emotional behaviour will be any further ahead of your peers- children will stay at the same level emotionally however bright they are (my wise Grandma told me this).

Can you take the pressure off at home, maybe cut back his hours at school- or at least get teachers onside re how young he is and to support rather than criticize him?

That "stop it with all those words Mummy" comment sounds just like my son when overstimulated.ust today at tea time he told me " I need peace and quiet Mummy" (!) Their brains can get onto "overload" so easily at this age I think.

So..... you must follow your instincts but I think I would be inclined to change stuff around at home (clear boundaries re behaviour, chill out time when tired- can he have a nap at the weekend if he's really bad?), and make sure there is support at school- before doing any other assessment. If he is doing full days I seriously would consider cutting back on these and seeing if there is a change in behaviour.

Good luck!

Oh yes, just reading a few more comments... if he was at school here he would be in nursery still!!!

They keep the younger ones until Christmas in nursery, then they join the Reception class in January. So there you go! Really I would think seriously about cutting back for him, or taking him out.

I'm sure he will cope in Year 1 without Reception if you are worried about that- having the maturity and confidence things just slot into place for them.

Hels x

Thanks everyone. I have decided I will go and have a chat with the GP, also following some advice on the SN board - nothing to lose after all. Yes he was in 5 full days at nursery Tgger and that was 9-5.30, but he managed much better there - but he didn't have to do anything at nursery and could always take himself off to a quiet place if he needed to, a very different setting.

What sets my alarm bells ringing is that in comparison to parents' descriptions of other children (both MN and RL) his behavioural meltdowns seem to happen far more often; it's nearly every time he has to get dressed, every time he has to come and sit down etc. And the extremeness of it, lashing out and scratching and seeming out of control of that.