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To grass up my sister

(76 Posts)
FoxtrotFoxtrotSierra Sun 03-Feb-13 21:57:47

I don't like her. I need to get that out before I ask if I'm being unreasonable.

My sister has never managed her finances well. She has been managing the minimum repayments on her loans/credit cards for some years whilst living rent free in my parents' house and pissing all her money up the wall. She also stole just under a thousand pounds from my father a few years back but because she's the baby we're not allowed to talk about that

Anyway, she's now unemployed and can't make her minimu repayments. She's decided to go into a Debt Relief Order, which is like bankruptcy for people who owe less than £15k (she does if you don't include my parents), have assets worth less than £300 (her car is worth £1200 but she's claiming my parents own it and she has some v expensive jewellery) and people who have disposable income of less than £50 per month (she pays nothing towards keep at home and her entire income is disposable). So she meets none of the criteria.

She has said she's not going to list what she owes family, is going to claim her car belongs to our parents and that she pays rent to them when she doesn't. I can't sit by and watch whilst she perjures herself (and it is perjury) claiming that she doesn't have anything to show whilst the rest of us pay however much in interest to service our debts. Moreover, my father is a magistrate and my mother a county councillor. Surely in their positions of public office they have a duty to make the authorities aware of the lies.

DH has said it's me being a cow, which might be the point, but it feels like my sister is again not taking responsibility and telling more lies that she thinks she will get away with and therefore not learn from her pretty fucking massive mistake to date.

So AIBU to point out to her, and if she doesn't listen the relevant authorities, that she isn't telling the truth?

twoboyslater Sun 03-Feb-13 22:27:03

Yanbu to want to take the moral highground on this. What she is doing is dishonest.

However, yabvu to drag your mom and dad into this, when they're probably stressed enough about the situation as it is. I think it's very unfair to to put them in the middle of you and your sister, mainly because you don't like her. To me, it sounds like you are just grasping at straws for an excuse to get one over on her. And although that may not be the case, I fear that your parents may think exactly the same.

My advice would be to back off a bit. If she's being dishonest throughout what is essentially a bankruptcy claim, checks will be made, and it will come back to bite her then. In the meantime, I would grit your teeth and not drag your parents into it; it'll make you look just as bad as her. You never know, her comeuppance might be just around the corner...

Yellowtip Sun 03-Feb-13 22:36:47

Your parents and your father in particular have an absolute duty to sort this one out. Neither should hold office if they don't.

quoteunquote Sun 03-Feb-13 22:40:23

step away from the sister,
step away from the situation,

Put your energies into positive things, and you will be too busy to be bothered by this.

There is nothing you can do that will not end up with everyone pondering your motives.

The bigger picture is that your sister has quite a sad life, and hasn't formed a foundation for a future, so when you put the boot in, people will wonder why you can't see this, or if you do , then why would you attack someone when they are down, ask yourself why you want to do it, and if there is something positive instead you could do,

so do yourself a favour put all your energies into keeping so busy, that you don't do yourself a huge disservice, by saying something that will antagonise everyone.

Your parents sound intelligent and probably don't need it pointing out, they are no doubt worrying ,feeling frustrated, and guilty that their child is not coping with life, so do them a favour and be very supportive, that means not stirring.

ChristmasJubilee Sun 03-Feb-13 22:47:47

Your Dh is right.

WhichIsBest Sun 03-Feb-13 22:51:14

Again, I think you would be better to keep out of it.

timidviper Sun 03-Feb-13 22:56:02

I think you might cause far more distress to your parents than you intend if you report her.

I think you should sit your parents down and remind them of the implications of her perjury on them if she continues and explain to them that they will help her most by making her deal with her issues.

VenusRising Sun 03-Feb-13 22:56:22

I think you would regret this level of vindictiveness and meanness.

So what your sister isn't taking responsibility for her life, she has her life, and you have yours.

Live and let live, and hope that you can keep your own nose clean, and above water.

twoboyslater Sun 03-Feb-13 22:58:41

I posted my original comment, which I thought was fair, after reading your original post.
However, after people have told you that yabu and your response is 'but but but but' and '*stomps feet*', I'd like to retract my previous comment.
It is obvious that you wanting to grass your sister in is not because of what's legally or morally right; it's out of jealousy and spite, and trying to get one over on your sister so that mom and dad finally pay you the attention that you want.
That is not fair at all. Sorry, but I agree with your husband on this one.

greenpostit Sun 03-Feb-13 23:06:21

I would leave the situation well alone. For a start by reporting her you could get your parents into trouble.

You are not colluding in this stuff, you are separate from it. Collusion is having involvement/facilitating etc which you are not doing. Your parents are though.

I understand that you do not like her and she does seem dishonest and selfish. However, you will be better off keeping well out of it. If you want to do anything you could suggest to your parents that they would be acting illegally (?) and you advise them not to do it.

If you report her, you'll probably feel good for about 1 minute. After which time you will worry about your parents and it will all feel pretty shit. Not worth it.

FoxtrotFoxtrotSierra Sun 03-Feb-13 23:08:54

twoboys I think that's a little unkind. I know that some of my motives are not right, or I wouldn't be asking. It's not out of jealousy at all, but I won't deny a certain amount of spite. That's not my primary motive though. I am just letting off steam here where it won't come back on my parents.

I am, frankly, furious that she is putting her own wants above her responsibilities and the responsibilities of my parents. I am trying not to cloud that with my dislike of the way she has chosen to live her life (which is at odds with how I and my other sister live our lives). I am gobsmacked that when there is little detrimental outcome of her telling the truth she is lying again and not facing up to her own life. It feels like this is her opportunity to grow up and face up to adult responsibilities and she is choosing not to. I am so cross that her lies may impact on the rest of the family.

I don't know how to have a relationship with her in the future when she has done this. It's a crime, and I have a very strong sense of right and wrong. It's distressing any which way.

NomNomDePlumPudding Sun 03-Feb-13 23:13:38

yabu - vindictive is the word that springs to mind. you don't like your sister? don't see her and don't think about her.

Andro Sun 03-Feb-13 23:19:47

A reminder to your sister and your parents that things such as car ownership can be checked (and as such, perjury detected) would not be spiteful or inappropriate.

From there, walk away!

It's really hard when a sibling has been given preferential treatment...I can really understand what you're feeling.

Vijac Sun 03-Feb-13 23:19:57

I would just stay out of it and not let it wind you up. She is probably very unhappy with her debt and the chance to be release from her debt could be the opportunity for her to turn her life around. (Although it is of course unfair for those of us who live responsibly and don't spend beyond our means). Try to just focus on your life and maybe discuss with your parents that you feel the level of support that you both get is unfair and is there a way to ensure that you both get the same help.

cerealqueen Sun 03-Feb-13 23:20:09

If you liked her, would you still do it? You are probably acting out of dislike.
Your sister sounds a bit of a mess and she can't be happy with things like they are. Bankruptcy is a huge step, and while she might not see it now, she will certainly have to face up to what she has done.

Some saying or other 'Do no harm' . Think about it.

VenusRising Sun 03-Feb-13 23:22:09

Well, I think you are right to acknowledge that you are distressed.
It's good to own a feeling and to sit with it awhile, BUT I think you are crossing a boundary here.

Your sister with all her faults and failings is her own person, sink or swim, she has her own life, and her own road.

You, on the other hand have your own trials and tribulations, and have to deal with those. Black and white thinking is a heavy burden. Taking a moralistic view from the back of your high horse, is a rather lonely way to travel through life.

I don't think for one minute that you will achieve any kind of personal resolution by shopping your sister. Rather I think that your enmeshment and entanglement in her life will backfire into yours.

Your DH is right. Leave it.

If I was your DH, I'm not sure I'd want such a bitter and vindictive person around me. Overwhelmingly you have been told by mn and by those who love you in your RL to leave it be.

If you want a medal for being upstanding, and doing the 'right' thing, you could volunteer to help those less fortunate than yourself. You seem to have time on your hands, and energy to spare.
It would do you good, and might garner you some good karma. Maybe even set an example for your poor lost sister.

Hello,

If you had a good relationship with your sister would you consider doing this? If not then it seems the main motive is out of spite, and that is unreasonable.

Sorry if I've missed this - are your parents aware of her plans?
I would imagine that your parents wouldn't get in trouble anyway - how were they to know what she put down on forms?
If they are aware perhaps have a chat with them and ask them do they not understand the implications of not encouraging her to act responsibly?

I don't think you should grass her up, let go of why you're angry with her and keep your distance.

Being angry at her will only eat yourself up x

My brother was vile to me and we don't speak, I would never try to get him in trouble, I can't imagine caring enough anymore, and would feel I was bringing myself to his level for being spiteful.

Do you talk to her at all?

FoxtrotFoxtrotSierra Sun 03-Feb-13 23:26:03

Vijac I see that being released from her debt can only be a good thing - this has been hanging over her for a decade. It's her dishonesty in doing it, claiming she has no assets or income when she does, that frustrates me. The unfairness is that they turn a blind eye to her crimes just like they did when she was stealing and that there are no sanctions or consequences to her behaviour.

cerealqueen - that is what I'm struggling with. I think I probably wouldn't report her, but would try to prevent her from doing what she is doing because of the possible detriment to my parents. I don't want them to get in trouble, but I want them all to realise what the possible effects of her lies are. The stupid thing is that if she told the truth there would be little recourse - my parents could buy her car for a few hundred quid and she wouldn't be committing perjury. Where is the detriment to her actually telling the truth? So why lie?

Cherriesarelovely Sun 03-Feb-13 23:34:32

I see what you mean OP. People being dishonest about stuff like this gets right up my nose. You are absolutely right,she wont learn her lesson and I don't think YABU for thinking of reporting her. If your parents are colluding with her then they are being equally dishonest.

However, I don't think I would give myself the grief of reporting her. Tell them what you think and let them suffer the possible consequences.

cumfy Sun 03-Feb-13 23:39:55

So is your magistrate father going to say she pays rent ?

AmberLeaf Sun 03-Feb-13 23:45:53

You only want to do this because you don't like her.

Just stay out of it.

cumfy Sun 03-Feb-13 23:47:15

And basically she can in fact pay off the debts with her fictitious rent.

She just doesn't feel like it ?

"Bankruptcy" seems to be a lifestyle choice nowadays, no idea why they made it so easy and I truly hope DSis fails in her attempts to become a criminal.

FoxtrotFoxtrotSierra Sun 03-Feb-13 23:52:07

cumfy he said to me today that "it's not her car as we paid for it" when we know they were paid back, and I expect he will say the payments for the car were rent. I pointed out to him what that meant as a magistrate and he went quiet.

Venus thank you. I will take exception to the word vindictive, because I'm not struggling with this because I'm vindictive. If I were, I'd just have done it. I'm struggling because she needs to take responsibility and she isn't doing so. If she manned up I would actually pay to buy her assets in bankruptcy back for her, and not hold it over her at all, it's the lying I can't abide.

I know it's not worth the grief, but it's so irksome that she won't face up to this like an adult - she'll just lie again and take the easier way out. I suppose I'm embarrassed by the way this is seen as acceptable when other people are sent down gleefully by my dad for far lesser offences.

Time to go back to therapy methinks.

headingmyway Sun 03-Feb-13 23:53:28

I went bankrupt a few years ago so I've read up on the various rules about assets and disposable income. The rules for DROs aren't exactly the same so this is based on what I know about bankruptcy.

Usually a car is allowed to be kept if it is valued at less than £1k (they use a specific guide to check prices, it is much lower than the price she would have paid for it as others have said). The Official Receiver will be able to check with the DVLA about ownership so I'm sure they will find out regardless of what your sister say. It's also possible for your parents to buy the interest in the car, which they may be willing to do. So she may be able to keep the car and stay completely above board.

It sounds like the car will be valued quite low and won't cause problems even if they do find out. Even the jewellery may not affect anything, as the resale value of jewellery is quite low. When ORs take action on hidden assets, it will usually be items of high value, such as property abroad.

As for her income - you say she's unemployed, so is her income entirely from benefits? If that's the case, no payment order will be made, whether she claims to be paying rent or not. They do not make payment orders when the sole income is derived from benefits. So mentioning this to the authorities will make no difference to her case.

Going through insolvency is not an easy process. It's very stressful, you have to deal with many creditors harassing you daily, deal with the forms, go to court to declare it, and it stays on your credit file for six years. This is a massive consequence, it is not an easy way out.

Finally - if it turns out she doesn't meet some of the criteria for a DRO (by having debts over £15k and too much surplus income), she would still be able to go for a bankruptcy which has virtually the same effect of clearing her debts (but costs more to do it in court fees).

FoxtrotFoxtrotSierra Mon 04-Feb-13 00:14:21

That's kind of my frustration headingmyway - telling the truth will make very little difference to the outcome, but lying is a big fat breach of the law. God, I'd buy the car for her if she declared it, as they'd sell it back to us for practically nothing. It's her lying, and her dragging my parents in (and their lack of action against this) that is making me fume.

She needs to go bankrupt, not into a DRO. This costs more, but she's lying in the hope of saving £600. It's just a madness. The outcome is the same and she's not lying about stuff!

headingmyway Mon 04-Feb-13 00:21:11

DROs have to be done through an intermediary (e.g. CAB or other advice agency). So you might be able to contact them for advice, it would enable them to advise her on the correct route without having the same repercussions as reporting to the insolvency service.

But, I'm really not sure based on what you've said that the wouldn't be eligible for a DRO in any case.

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