to sypport dd in pushing another child?

(61 Posts)
KhallDrogo Tue 22-Jan-13 18:46:18

In context...8 yo dd1 had a problem with an adult being over familiar. School was involved with warning him off, unwanted hugs from stranger. Motives a bit blurry, but think just inappropriate rather than anything sinister

So, we have had a number of talks about her being able to say 'no' to anyone if they are doing something she doesn't like, and I have made it clear she can shout and push.

Now...boy at school was fooling around, teasing and kissing her. She asked him to stop, he didn't. She pushed him and he fell over. She has been told off by teacher. She tried to speak to her own teacher about what happened, but she was told 'this isn't the time'

She is upset, but I have reinforced that she did the right thing. AIBU? AND WIBU to speak to the teacher and say that I will continue to support this?

I understand teachers are busy in the play ground and can't get involved in every little to-do; but she asked him to stop herself, teacher too busy/uninterested...

Morloth Thu 24-Jan-13 10:11:29

If someone was trying to kiss/touch me and I had asked them not to, I would not hesitate to use violence to get them to stop.

I have taught my DSs that their bodies are theirs, more girls should be taught this.

If MY DSs were pinching someone's bum and had been asked to stop and they continued, I would think a shove is possibly the best thing they could hope for.

Stop when you are asked and you don't get shoved, not that complicated.

Goldmandra Thu 24-Jan-13 08:20:39

If Khall's DD had hold of the boy in such a way that he couldn't walk away from her to tell a teacher he would be perfectly right to push her.

It's about using the minimum force necessary to stop the behaviour which is upsetting them.

That isn't a complicated principle for an 8 year old to understand.

KhallDrogo Wed 23-Jan-13 20:27:10

i have thought about that alot cansu, because my motivation is definitely in preparing dd for life as a woman and avoiding/dealing with sexual assault/abuse from men...

1) i dont think the school are saying its ok that dd shoved the boy. she was told off for that. however the teacher is saying that the boys behaviour needs dealing with and that dd should feel she can go to a teacher.

i think that teacher just avoided getting into that conversation with me

2) i would actually think it was justifiable if dd was pushed in the scenario you describe. She does respect other peoples personal space/boundaries. I would be shocked and cross if I heard that she had been doing what you describe. I know dd would pack it in if asked, so it wouldn't escalate to her being pushed.

I think a 'push' is very different to a thump

cansu Wed 23-Jan-13 20:15:29

Ok let's imagine this scenario. A boy reports that your dd has been following him around and even pinched his bum whilst laughing and saying she fancied him. The boy pushes your dd over and she is upset and crying. What would you reaction be when the school tells you the boy was right to push your dd because she was hassling him? honestly, would you think it was ok?

mrsjay Wed 23-Jan-13 19:20:13

yes it was a good positive outcome

Goldmandra Wed 23-Jan-13 19:18:33

Good outcome I think smile

KhallDrogo Wed 23-Jan-13 19:03:23

I have spoken with her class teacher

She was of the opinion that;

1) dd should have been allowed to give her explanation of why she pushed and the boy needed an explanation of respecting personal space/boundaries

2) dd needs to feel safe and protected in school

She spoke to dd to this effect in my presence and said she would talk to her again tomorrow.

I said I appreciated that teachers are busy and it must be hard to ne involved in all the disputes every day AND that dd should have gone to a teacher before pushing. But that I would back her up if she felt that was her only option. Dds teacher is very professional and diplomatic and didn't challenge me on that

I'm very happy with her response

Narked Wed 23-Jan-13 12:33:56

I'd be fine with what your DD did. She told him to stop, she moved away, he didn't stop.

I'd ask the school what their policy is on protecting children from this. What's the point in zero tolerance of pushing, hitting etc when they seem to tolerate other unwanted physical contact.

WilsonFrickett Wed 23-Jan-13 12:32:46

To be fair Mammy the question was AIBU to support DD's behaviour to the teacher. Lots of people have said one of the reasons the OP should speak to the teacher is so the boy's behaviour can be dealt with and the standards expected generally can be discussed.

MammyKaz Wed 23-Jan-13 12:21:37

Actually I'm now getting a little exasperated that the focus is primarily on your DDs actions & what she should have done instead. What about this boy??? What are the consequences that he is having to accept for his inappropriate behavior towards her??? If he didn't make her feel threatened he wouldn't have been pushed - this is where focus should be & the education needs to begin.
My DD isn't school age yet but she will be taught NOT to accept unwanted or threatening attention & take responsibility for making it clear it is unwanted - even if that results in pushing. This I hope will help see her right through her life. Otherwise we're in danger of breeding a generation of doormats that will always need an "authority" figure to deal with things on their behalf.

Butterycrumble Wed 23-Jan-13 11:58:22

Non of our children should need to use violence or aggression and there are other strategies which should be taught as first response BUT the message that low level sexual assault is something that only merits a word not a physical reaction is wrong too.

I would respect the school's zero tolerance policy whilst being pleased my dd was confident to enforce her physical boundaries when necessary.

IMO compliance is a bigger danger to your daughter especially when older. The argument that a physical response could escalate the conflict is the logic that empowers the aggressor.

The argument that you shouldn't fight back when older because you could escalate the assault is an argument that favours the aggressor. Sadly this all starts in the playground, in later life most incidents are opportunistic luck pushers rather than overwhelmingly violent attackers who we couldn't repel. I broke the nose of one horrible man who tried to assault me, transpired he had been groping and assaulting some other friends for a while. Am delighted I disabused him of the notion it was behaviour that would be accepted.

WilsonFrickett Wed 23-Jan-13 11:54:54

OKaay.
My intention is that my DS doesn't do that, but clearly we're on different paths. All I will say is don't expect school to back you up on that one. It is extremely difficult for them to give out a message that there's zero tolerance of violence except when someone thinks it's acceptable.

YorkshireDeb Wed 23-Jan-13 11:45:58

I think you are right to teach her to defend her boundaries but if she is going to do this with physical force she needs to be prepared to accept the consequences too. From a school perspective they cannot condone a child pushing another so hard that they fall over - what if he'd hit his head on something hard as he fell? The children who get into most fights at school are often children who say "mum/dad tells me if someone hits me I should hit back" as they are unable to distinguish between a physical attack & an accidental bump from someone not looking where they're going. I try to tell my pupils that if they tell me what someone has done there's only one person in the wrong & I can tell off that person but if they hurt that person there's two people in the wrong & I have to deal with them both. As a parent I intend to teach my ds to stick up for himself but I'd also like him to accept the consequences of his actions. X

BarbarianMum Wed 23-Jan-13 11:41:39

I like Goldmantra's post but that is quite complicated for a child to judge so I wouldn't particularly blame her for getting to pushing earlier (assuming the boy in question wasn't 4 or something).

It may be worth showing her how to push people away firmly but gently. We are having to do this with ds2 (5) as one of the little girls in his class is rather over-affectionate with him, which he hates, and won't stop when asked. Her mum thinks it cute and he should be grateful hmm. But she is half his size so obviously he can't send her flying.

gymmummy64 Wed 23-Jan-13 11:31:59

I had a somewhat similar incident with my DD. She whacked the boy involved who promptly went and told a teacher. My DD was hauled into the head's office. Head's (understandable) position was that the school has zero tolerance on physical violence between children or children to adults so although she agreed my DD had been severely provoked and understood the reasons for my DD's frustration, she couldn't condone the behaviour. The rules are to seek out an adult rather than retaliate physically.

I can completely see why the school has to give this message - they can't be picking and choosing between 'acceptable' violence and 'unacceptable' violence.

However, I think this system breaks down when the kids' experience of 'seeking out an adult' is so bland and unhelpful. Most of the time they seem to get brushed off and sent back to play.

sometimes you have no option other than to defend yourself physically.

Goldmandra Wed 23-Jan-13 11:13:16

As adults we are permitted to use reasonable force. It seems logical for children to be taught to do the same.

If she was able to stop him from holding her/kissing her by turning around and walking away, preferably to tell a teacher, she should have done that.

If he was strong enough to stop her from walking away or had her cornered and it was the only way to get his hands off her she did the right thing.

No child is likely to get a teacher's attention by shouting in a playground unless the teacher is already watching them. You have to shout just to have a conversation when you are a few inches away!

If my DD told me that she had asked him to stop and he was preventing her from getting away I would back her to hilt in pushing him off.

The school needs to have an assembly on using their hands appropriately.

KhallDrogo Wed 23-Jan-13 11:03:42

My intention is that she will be capable of breaking bones in 10 years time

I disagree, I think physically defending yourself is OK

WilsonFrickett Wed 23-Jan-13 10:33:44

I would definitely go into school and discuss it. If nothing else, it sounds like there should be some class discussion about respect.

My DS has SN and is a target for bullies, however I believe that physical violence is wrong, every time, so I don't teach him to push. I teach him to say no, shout no, then find a teacher. I think you are 100% right to empower DD to respect her own boundaries but I don't believe she should use force to do this - particularly as it's a strategy that won't work for her in the future and may even escalate things in later life. For eg, 10 years down the line and this happens with a drunk bloke in a bar, pushing him will escalate the situation and inflame it. There are better choices to be made to protect yourself IMO.

CrapBag Wed 23-Jan-13 10:06:21

I remember your previous thread and the outcome. Glad that is sorted.

I think given that she told the boy to leave her alone and he didn't means that she did the right thing in pushing him away. She is learning that she doesn't have to put up with something she doesn't like, hopefully he is learning that when someone says stop then they mean stop (and I don't just mean in a male/female type situation but in general).

Branleuse Wed 23-Jan-13 10:01:56

i would have supported my dd here too

KhallDrogo Wed 23-Jan-13 09:57:49

I'm confident that the boy doesn't have any SN. I only know him vaguely, but he appears NT. He has been lovely, anytime I've spent with him. I don't think his behaviour is unusual at all, I imagine he just got a bit exuberant

Thanks for the reassurances. Sometimes I find it hard to trust ny judgement completely. Especially given recent events. And I was raised to be quite compliant...in a 'just play nicely, don't make a fuss' kind of way. Bur then its taken me years to realise I am justified in setting my boundaries and defend them. I want my dcs to know this from the start

mrsjay Wed 23-Jan-13 09:49:37

maybe not all boys obviously when dd was that age boys were talking about asking girls out I was shock as I thought boys at that age were all eww about girls,

boredSAHMof4 Wed 23-Jan-13 09:48:26

we must be a bit backward where we are then lol! Girls might talk about boys (a bit) but boys are definitely not interested in anything like that at all

mrsjay Wed 23-Jan-13 09:35:01

am just wondering if this boy has a SN.It doesn't seem normal an 8 yr old boy telling a girl her hair is nice and trying to kiss her.Most boys that age think girls are icky and would have their eyes poked out rather than kiss one!!

a lot of boys are like this nowadays they all want to 'ask out girls' etc kids are growing up far too fast ime I dont think SN has to come into this really, (girls talk about boys at 8 )

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