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to think that this should not be happening in this country, regardless of which religion it is

(89 Posts)
BeanJuice Fri 18-Jan-13 09:17:52
peacefuloptimist Sun 20-Jan-13 09:27:51

'That the out of order factions seem to get away with it.'

Really? Through the whole video you never saw the faces of the two making the video once and it seemed quite deliberate (i.e. hoody, back to camera). Seems like they are not so cocky that they will risk showing their faces to the public. Wonder why? Probably because they know that they will get in trouble and face consquences for their anti-social behaviour. There have been prosecutions against this type of radical behaviour (for example their leaders have been imprisoned and in some cases deported, the men who were handing out the homophobic literature were sent to prison) so I disagree that they are not being dealt with.

'Where were the police?'

I think a lot of people who ever have reason to call the police find themselves asking that question. That question the police alone can answer.

'Just really don't like this no area thing because won't most people not go there anymore if this sort of behaviour becomes more common place and then it does become a no go area.'

This type of behaviour is certainly not new. You will find it in any major city where there are gangs. For example in South, North and East London (not familiar with West) there are gangs who engage in postcode feuds where if you come from a certain area (e.g. Hackney - no offence to those in Hackney I just know of a particular example of someone from Hackney experiencing this) you will be beaten up if you go in to another area where there is another gang 'ruling' even if you yourself are not part of the gang in your area. I know definitely in South London you have this sort of thing where some people from Peckham, Woolich or Brixton are afraid to go in to neighbouring areas for fear of being subjected to gang violence. Weren't there cases in the news a few years ago about young people being killed for this same reason. Arent there some parts of your local area which you will avoid because of crime, drugs, anti-social behaviour etc? My point is this happens already but it doesnt effect the majority of society (in the cases Ive mentioned normally just young men) and it is not linked to religion. It seems probable that these men are from a similar background and are still engaged in the same behaviour though they have left the gangs (and made their own it seems). This type of behaviour is very difficult to eradicate completely from urban areas but it can be controlled and the perpetrators punished which Im sure will happen to these two if they are identified.

The media fixate on these sort of Radical groups because they like scare-mongering because thats what sells papers. However there is nothing to be afraid of because these groups are a minority within a minority. A tiny fraction of the total population. In my earlier post I mentioned that 10 men were engaged in doing charitable, helpful work in my local area. Compare that to the two who made this video. It would be worrying if all sections of the muslim community behaved like this but the fact is they dont. You will find the type of people mentioned in these articles who engage in this sort of vigilante behaviour fit a certain profile. They are young (normally under 30), they are not well-educated, they come from deprived backgrounds, they are unemployed or work in low-skilled jobs. In fact they fit the profile of other factions of UK society who also feel alienated and similarly create problems and engage in anti-social behaviour.

The way to deal with Radicals like this is the same way you deal with the far-right white extremists. Firstly, monitor them to make sure they abide by the law and there views do not cause them to harm others in society, acting if they do break the law (which is largely what happens with these people). Secondly marginalise them. There was a huge storm a few years ago when the BNP leader was invited on to Question Time. People rightly objected because they didnt want him to get a platform to express his extreme views and possibly garner more supporters. That is how the Muslim community deals with Radicals like these. We do not allow them to speak/preach at mosques (normally you will find them hovering outside the mosque premises because they are not allowed inside), their views are challenged ferociously if they enter in to debate with mainstream muslims (which they tend to avoid), young people are educated and warned against this type of fanatical, radical views. The Muslim community does not give them a platform on which to stand. Its time the UK media followed suit.

WaynettaSlobsLover Sat 19-Jan-13 23:15:55

I didn't even know about that case until I just read it Really!! That's a real pisstake and I completely agree with the shalwar kameez being sufficient. Those jilbabs can be a safety issue, I for one have tripped up stairs whilst wearing one and carrying my ds. They are impractical particularly for the school environment. Lip reading like you said is the priority here, without any shadow of a doubt.

alemci Sat 19-Jan-13 22:29:39

yes, I wonder if this would have made the courts if the legal costs hadn't been paid. I totally agree about the lip reading issue. It was also a health and safety concern.

I always felt that school girl was being manipulated by her family.

ReallyTired Sat 19-Jan-13 22:17:14

WaynettaSlobsLover,

I completely agree with your posts. I believe that a Muslim parliment/council/commitee would help to disinguish what are real religous rights and when a muslim is taking the piss. (Ie. exhibitionist behaviour of wanting to wear the jihab in class rather than the simpler hijab) or wanting to cover the face completely. (The rights of Deaf people to be able to lip read are as important as religious rights.)

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/mar/23/schools.religion

I feel that this school girl's family should have paid for the costs of the court case. The whole point of a school uniform is that children can't pick and choose what they wear. The shalwar kameez meets the Islamic needs for modesty perfectly well.

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Sat 19-Jan-13 20:55:36

Not these kids in the video because clearly they are in their own parallel universe!

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Sat 19-Jan-13 20:55:00

No plenty of ghettoes in places around the country where people are just so content to stay in their own holes.
They won't meet people outside their own narrow comfort zones and somehow it's become a matter of pride.
Along with all that comes the cultural baggage of expecting the children to not integrate. What pressure that must put on these poor kids I can only imagine.

WaynettaSlobsLover Sat 19-Jan-13 20:34:56

Zombies I'd love to know the answer too because the irony is that all of us can benefit and learn from different cultures and backgrounds, whilst still knowing our own roots and respecting where we live. Rant aside, the majority of non-whites/English are very educated, integrated and decent people, just like anyone else. My problem is literally with those who slag Britain off, drain the nhs (tons of kids and diabetes/high cholesterol due to their high fat/sugar diets) and refuse to make friends with anyone beyond their own nationality. I think living in London maybe problems such as these are more prevalent? Not sure

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Sat 19-Jan-13 20:21:01

waynetta completely with you. And I'm of a minority ethnicity too.
I don't understand how people can live in a society and not even want to integrate.

WaynettaSlobsLover Sat 19-Jan-13 19:00:56

Haha grin I'm almost BNP with some of my views...according to the PC brigade ;)

BeanJuice Sat 19-Jan-13 18:47:46

Ah, I love people like you Waynetta grin

WaynettaSlobsLover Sat 19-Jan-13 17:43:59

Integration is what pisses me off the most actually. How you can be in England for 30 years, not speak the language fluently, and not have any native friends or cultural awareness just staggers me. Yet unbelievably I've met people, of different faiths, that are like this. My kids are Muslim and half Arab, but they are English/British white and a few other European nationalities to boot. My son dances to Arabic music and asks me when I'm going to put on Afternoon Tea and scones lol. My dh loves his native dishes but adores the countryside and winters and if course a full English (wink). Sorry for the rant guys but this is personally what I think everyone should be doing really, cultural awareness is great but we have to remember where we live and the social norms around us. The prats on the Fail Online are a perfect example of possibly bad upbringing and limited intelligence and social skills.

WaynettaSlobsLover Sat 19-Jan-13 17:33:47

Lol I would love to campaign for parliament because as a British (I prefer English actually) Muslim, I'm sick and tired of all the PC bollocks that goes on, as are the majority of Muslims in this country. Furthermore, there needs to be some sort of guidelines in Islamic and other religious centres that prohibits extremist views and has a strict policy on people who try and radicalise or push hardline attitudes. One of the most disgusting things is the attitude of people with faith towards people who don't have faith, that kind of contempt is unislamic and is arrogance at its worst. I've slowly distanced myself from friends who think anjem choudhary is acceptable, who have extreme views on every tiny thing, who judge other people for choices that they don't agree with, and who berate female Muslims (like me) who don't wear a billowing tent dress and headcover in public. Thank god in general the majority of Muslims like dh's family, my sis in law's family and many others are religious yet moderate and have integrated well/speak perfect English whilst bringing their kids up to be decent and contribute to the economy.

Abitwobblynow Sat 19-Jan-13 17:08:52

Oh, and you very much are NBU. This is bullying and intimidation and the perpetrators need arresting and charging, with an invitation to return to whichever islamic paradise they originated from.

Abitwobblynow Sat 19-Jan-13 17:07:23

Waynetta, can you campaign for parliament?! We need good Brits like you! (I too am from another continent and I HATE right-on left wing twats people apologising for British values and British institutions, and I hate them even more pretending that other cultures are of equal value - they aren't. If they were we wouldn't be here, would we???????

Moominsarehippos Sat 19-Jan-13 17:04:17

The Anti-Tosser Brigade?
Where do I sign up?

andtheycalleditbunnylove Sat 19-Jan-13 16:52:17

i used to work in blackburn and there were areas where the police wouldn't go and buses wouldn't run - 'white' areas.
the 'you can't walk in our area' aspect is unacceptable no matter which group is doing it. you get it in some jewish areas round manchester - just walk up the road going from a to b and curtains twitch, men appear on their drives...and i've been told myself 'you don't walk here' by asian youths in other areas of manchester, and suffered all kinds of abuse from white and mixed teenagers in the area where i live.
[lovebunny, there's a pattern appearing - nobody likes you - this is mumsnet, they don't like you here, either. ah well]

but we do need a moral revival in this country and if some Muslims are willing to stand up and be counted, some Christians should be right with them, and members of other religions or none.

alemci Sat 19-Jan-13 11:48:27

Good point Peace about the guys clearing the snow and helping with charity.

However, what worries me is the way that the out of order factions seem to get away with it. Where were the police? Just really don't like this no area thing because won't most people not go there anymore if this sort of behaviour becomes more common place and then it does become a no go area.

I read a comment on another forum that these vigilante also harrass moderate Muslims and tell them what to do. They are quite intimidating and again the police don't help.

In Bradford aren't there areas where the police will not go

peacefuloptimist Sat 19-Jan-13 08:11:56

'Someone needs to have a firm word with them about ways to make a positive contribution to society'.

Why would they want to make a positive contribution when negative acts and anti-social behaviour is what gets muslim people attention?

In my local area a group of about 10 muslim men, all educated, all professionals, tax-payers, family men etc are going out to clear the snow from roads around the mosque, from the driveways of care homes and their elderly neighbours homes out of their own accord. They are not being paid for their work. The council is giving them shovels and high-visibility jackets that is about it and quite frankly they are not doing it to get the recognition from the council or for any financial benefits since all of them are hard-working citizens. Yet I bet you these men like the majority of UK muslims who are law-abiding, who are integrated and who like them give their free time to contribute to society will be totally ignored. A National Muslim charity recently recruited volunteers to pack food which had been donated by local Muslim food outlets in to parcels for homeless people in London. They had so many volunteers that they had to turn people away. However that was never publicised in the news.

Instead TWO idiots with a camera phone who are having a laugh will be held up as some sort of example or standard of what 'British muslims' are like. It is an absolute disgrace and in fact very disheartening to a person who has grown up here that there is such a determined effort to demonise muslims in the media so that every crack-pot, layabout and time waster is dregged up as an example of what Islam produces and not the kindness, charity and tolerance that Islam acutally promotes and that the majority of muslims try to embody. What is sadder then that is that there are many people including some on this thread who fall for it hook line and sinker and are unwilling to look beyond the headlines of the national news.

Sorry for the rant but got an email this morning asking for more volunteers to clear out the roads in our area and I just felt that it is so unfair that these kind of people are ignored.

BunFagFreddie Sat 19-Jan-13 07:54:21

Its absolutely disgusting. But its not a muslim issue. All religions have extremists who feel it is their job to tell the rest of us how to live.

Yes, like Mit Romney.

Moominsarehippos Sat 19-Jan-13 07:36:00

I'd pay good money to see a film of their mums giving them a clip around the ear.

GothAnneGeddes Fri 18-Jan-13 23:04:42

YANBU, they are arses and yes, I'm Muslim.

Someone needs to have a firm word with them about ways to make a positive contribution to society.

But yes, I do wonder how these people have a hotline to the Daily Mail.

I remember on one Muslim discussion board some said "That Anjem Choudary (main Al Majirouhn tossarse) needs a good kicking, unfortunately his antics will lead to some uncle or auntie getting a kicking instead.

These people love publicity and the media would do everyone a favour by not people so quick to trumpet their attention-seeking behaviour.

BeanJuice Fri 18-Jan-13 22:45:25

alemci I bet they especially didn't like the fact that a woman was standing up to them!

ComposHat Fri 18-Jan-13 21:45:11

From the Daily Heil article I expected to see 100 strong gangs in balaclavas weilding baseball bats, but all it looked like was a handful of teenage bellsniffs in hoodies. It is hardly 9/11 redux, more like Carry On Jihad, trying to destroy decadent western society by snatching beer cans from drunks on a Saturday night. The voice over at the end is piss funny too, if I hadn't known better I'd have thought it was an unseen extra from Brass Eye or the film Four Lions.

I speculate that before too long they'll get smacked in the chops when they try taking a can of booze off the wrong drunk and they'll slink away.

alemci Fri 18-Jan-13 21:19:20

The irony is that the vigalantees behaviour is far from exemplary. Bullying and harrassing others is a great way to be a good witness for your religion not. I think one lady stood up to them and they didn't like it.

BeanJuice Fri 18-Jan-13 19:27:40

andtheycalleditbunnylove - yes, walking home and minding your own business is really so awful. it's none of their bloody business!

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