Industrial Waste - been passed by local County

[WelshMoth]

Sorry - can't think of any other way to word this title, but AIBU to feel very uncomfortable about this?

We live in a town which has an Industrial works - been there for absolute decades. Employs a load of local families, does a lot for the community etc.

I've just read in our Community Magazine, a letter sent in to the Editor, by a member of the public. He has named himself (so not signed as anonymous).

In the letter he asks whether the people of this community are a aware that this Company are planning on emitting a pollutant called 2.3.7.8-Tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin (TCCD) which toxic and is a carcinogenic. Apparently, it's already been passed as fit by our County Council and they are now only awaiting consent from the Environment Agency before starting work.

No one in my family (there are lots of us spread around this town) or immediate group of friends and neighbours are aware of this - NEVER heard it mentioned before. AIBU to have expected at least a Public Notice of this application?

Does anyone know what I could be doing to at least find out more about this? I don't like what I've googled so far I must admit.

[Jins]

PM me with more details if you can. I'm a waste planner :)

[Softlysoftly]

Think Jins pretty much finished this thread in one sentence!

YANBU btw

[Jins]

Yes, sorry about that [shame]

I'd be prepared to bet that this substance has been part of the process for years and that a change in disposal method or a permitting issue has raised the profile.

Not good and you are right to worry but the reason why it goes to the EA is for risk assessment and appraisal of the methodology of disposal and potential pollution control.

If you don't want to out your location to me then you could ring the local EA office for more information

[WelshMoth]

Jins, fantastic. THANKS TONS.
I'll PM you immediately.

Softlysoftly - thanks for your post too. Made me

[FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda]

Also, if you have any specific questions about the chemical being disposed of, post here rather than google and I'll get my husband to answer for you. He's a professor of industrial waste recycling/processing.

[WelshMoth]

Flaming, THANK YOU! am out and about now but will come back to this later. It's really worrying me.

[Jins]

He sounds like a perfect person to answer that one

It's still in time for consultation (just) and it's a fairly straightforward proposal for a change to RDF fuel with associated energy production. That won't out the location as there are very many of them

[FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda]

He doesn't get home from work until 8.00pm, but I know he'll be more than happy to answer any questions once he's had his dinner.

[TwoIfBySea]

We knew nothing about the waste 'recycling' centre that appeared a few miles away. On regular days you can smell the stink from it, like the rotting whatever-it-is.

My worry is that it smells a bit like gas so if there were ever an actual gas leak we'd think it was from there instead. SEPA know, the council know, nothing happens.

[Jins]

Recycling centres can smell worse than landfills if they aren't properly controlled. If action is taken it usually ends up being some sort of deodorising spray which actually smells worse :(

[WelshMoth]

Jins - can this still be challenged then? What kind of time scale are we talking about and what do I need to do?

[lovelyladuree]

It hasn't been passed by the Environment Agency yet. Untwist those knickers.

[Jins]

The Environment Agency consultation is going until the 4th December I think. I PMd the links to you.

They are minded to approve the variation though.

I think you need to take advice from FlaminNora's DH on the actual risks and then draft a response to the EA. Happy to help with that if you want to go ahead but it does look a bit of a foregone conclusion. It's been a low key application so far which means the risk assessment didn't produce any worries. I haven't read the details though - will have a look when I get a chance

[WishICouldBeLikeDavidWicks]

Welshmoth I think I know the thing you're on about! I don't live far from it (and I thought there were no mumsnet readers for at least 50 miles from me...).

'the thing' has had lots of publicity, adverts in the paper, library etc.

[WelshMoth]

What what?

I'm on about a town about 5 miles from the city centre of Swansea?

[WishICouldBeLikeDavidWicks]

Beginning with C? It was on the front of the post ages ago, with a positive spin on it as it'll create jobs. Or something. Still can't believe someone near me reads mumsnet. [bshock]

[FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda]

Judging from my husband's reaction when I read out the chemical name, this is not good. He's just gone out to walk the dog and said he'll reply to this thread when he gets back.

[WelshMoth]

Thanks Flaming. I've just picked this thread back up now.

[WelshMoth]

WishICouldBe - yep, that's the place.

That'll teach me for not buying the Evening Post spends too much time on MN instead

I may even know you in RL?!

[Jins]

It's not no 1 on your desired list of chemicals for sure but a lot depends on volume and methodology for treatment.

You burn plastics - you get dioxins. Refuse derived fuel does have a huge range of potential pollutants depending on the waste that goes into it. I'm still looking for the detailed reports that would have been submitted but there's nothing showing on the page I found. Will have to go back to google again

[WishICouldBeLikeDavidWicks]

I doubt I know you, I'm not local, I'm from the other side of town!
I only read the Post front page in shops, and at my parents but these type of things generally get ads in local press, sometimes radio, but not everyone buys the paper/tolerates local radio so it's easy to miss them.

I asked my DH about it (he sort of knows this stuff) he said there are laws against chemicals and if they're legal and within limit, they're allowed.

[DrSnowman]

I am FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda's husband.

Sadly I am not an authority on dioxin, I am an expert on other things.

Well I have too little information to be able to make a judgement, this might be a tiny storm in a teacup or it could be a total house of horror depending on a series of different things.

1. If the level of dioxin is very low then I would say "do not worry", with the improvements in anayltical equipment it has been possible in recent years to measure almost anything at the very low levels which are the natural background level.
   

At low levels the jury is still out on dioxin, it might be a human carcinogen (substance which causes cancer) or it might not. I would err on the side of caution and assume it is carcinogenic. But many things in everyday life are carcinogenic (weakly). A good example is burnt toast or a flame grilled burger, both are likely to contain some small amounts of carcinogens.

You need to find out how much dioxin [2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin (TCCD)] is involved. At high levels like those seen in Italy at Seveso it caused some perfectly horrible effects. It was killing animals and causing some health effects in humans.

Be careful the acute toxicity of dioxin changes greatly from one species of animal to another. I very much doubt if the level of the dioxin would be able to cause acute effects.

1. You need to consider or get someone to consider by what route the dioxin will travel to you. I know nothing about the case you have, for exposure in food you can get the UK limits here www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/faq/dioxinspcbs/
   

The great problem is that depending on a person's habits and diet their daily dioxin dose could be different.

1. You need to consider what physical form the dioxin waste is in, it is a fine powder, is it very fine particles in the air (smoke), it is a liquid waste or is it a dense solid waste with large particles ?
   

For a solid waste how easy is it for the dioxin to leach out of the particles, if the dioxin is locked up inside large particles then it might not be able to leach out into places where it can do you harm.

1. I think you need to ask the following questions
   

A. What form is the dioxin waste in ?

B. How much dioxin is in the waste in terms of mg per kilos (ppm)

C. Which type of dioxin is it, is it the worst one or a milder one ?

D. How much dioxin will be escaping into the environment per day in an uncontrolled way (eg as dust)

E. How much dioxin will be deposited per day per square meter in the nearest residential area to the site ?

F. How large a dioxin dose would a typical home grown leafy vegtable give me if I was to grow my own vegtables on land near the site ?

G. How much dioxin should I expect to inhale per day from dust in the air

Based on the answers to F and G you could work out a dioxin dose per day for an adult or a child who has got past the stage of crawling on the floor eating dirt and sucking at random things

H. Ask if the environmental experts have calculated from the rate at which dioxin arrives on land, and the rate at which is breaks down what the equilibrium level will be. Ask for this in micrograms per kilo of soil for the soil in the top layer.

Based on the answer for question H, you could work out the dose per day for a small child if you know how much dirt the child eats per day.

You need to ask a toxicologist what the health effects of the amounts of dioxin calculated for F,G and H are. Sorry but I am not able to give out medical advice on what will happen if you eat x nanograms of dioxin.

[WelshMoth]

Am I getting worked up about nothing though? I want to do the right thing here but will it all be slapped down with a load of chemical jargon that I don't have a clue about

I'm getting all Erin Brokovitch about something I know nothing about.

[DrSnowman]

Well I warn you that you might get some people in authority might try to blind you with science. Do not be afraid, if you get answers to my suggested questions then tell me and my wife. I can look at the answers and then give you a chemist's opinion.

I think that you firstly need to find out what the exposure route will be, is it going to be smoke in the air, dust from ash or something else ?

[WelshMoth]

Dr Snowman. I can't thank you enough for your input. My last post crossed with yours so huge apologies for sounding a bit glib. I'll contact Environmental Wales on Monday, also the company itself.

Your post is heaped with info - I'll get back to you and Jins with any updates. Huge thanks again