WWYD: visiting family

[AmericasfavoritefightingFrenchman]

Curious for any advice about how to navigate this. YA family member visiting; has recently come out as not being cisgender, has strong feelings about pronouns. Parent of YA will be visiting too and has supportive strong feelings. Generally I don’t refer to people by pronouns if they’re in the room as that seems rude, so hopefully I’ll be fine. But my young DC aren’t reliable and will ask questions/drop me in it. WWYD to smooth things along before or during the visit? We want to build and maintain the relationship, not lose it.

[AmericasfavoritefightingFrenchman]

@Wanderingowl you make a good point. Think I have felt that the eldest at 8 is too young. Perhaps I’m being naive.

[AmericasfavoritefightingFrenchman]

I agree @CrapBucket in that I really don’t want to have a broken family over this.

[CrapBucket]

Honestly just smile and wave, smile and wave.

99% of society know all this gender stuff is a bonkers phase but individual children aren't to blame/responsible for getting caught up in it.

There are 4 trans children/YA in my family and we all call them by their new names and treat them the same as we ever did. When the novelty has worn off it will be important not to have broken families over it all.

Do whatever it takes to make sure there is less to heal from in the future.

[Wanderingowl]

@AmericasfavoritefightingFrenchman

I think DC will use the ‘obvious’ pronoun- or not, one of them is young enough to get mixed up with he and she still- and that will open them up to being corrected, and then the older ones will be curious. Visiting family will be evangelical in response. I’ve never spoken about any of this before with my DC and don’t want to yet. Oldest is 8.

To be completely honest, I think it's an understandable but massive mistake not to talk to our DC about gender ideology. Because as much as it's something they never should have to think about, someone is going to talk to them about it. In your case these family members, for others it is inserted into cartoons, like that non-binary bison on a Netflix preschoolers show, for some kids they 'educated' at school, either by teachers or peers. So the only way you can try and protect them from it, is to be the one to discuss it with them first.

My DS is 10 but we've had short, careful discussions for the last few years. One thing I make sure to tell him is that this is a very controversial issue and he could easily find himself in trouble if he says something to the wrong person, so don't bring it up with others. The thing is, kids instinctively know this is bullshit. They automatically know the sex of anyone past puberty, just like everyone else, and don't have the social niceness filter to maintain pretence. I'd carefully explain to them that there are some people who deeply wish to be the opposite sex and try their best to appear that way but it doesn't really work for appearance. And doesn't work at all to change their biology. Maybe explain that it's very fashionable at the moment and so a lot of people are trying it out. That they can try to be polite to those people as long as those people remain polite to them. But if they get mixed up that's ok, nobody should get angry with you for that. If they do, you will help them. And to always, always feel like they can discuss whatever they need to about this with you.

[AmericasfavoritefightingFrenchman]

Thanks @Delphinium20 - that seems like a sensible approach. Fortunately there is no new name for us to navigate at the moment.

[AmericasfavoritefightingFrenchman]

Hm. Good point @MichelleScarn. I think we will be firmly ‘in the wrong…’

The YA isn’t actually an adult, though not far off, so I do think some sensitivity is called for.

[Delphinium20]

I should add that we do use his new name but I often mess that up because I've known him since he was born and was around a lot when he was a child. I've told him that it's natural for people who've known him forever to slip into the old name, just like I do w/ my friends I knew before they were married (I have been known to forget one friend's recently married name! She, of course, laughs about it cause she has normal human social skills...). He was very angry about this at first, but he's chilled a bit on this. I'm sure that if, in an emergency or similar, someone called out his old name, he'd likely answer and react to it w/out having a tantrum. Like, "Oh no! Oldname, watch out for that car!"

My reasons for trying to use his new name: he's an adult and adults can change their names, I'd try to respect this if he, for example, got married and had a new last name. The new name is rather unisex sounding, so it's easier to use it.

[MichelleScarn]

What efforts so you think they'll be putting in to not offend/upset you if they do decide to 'educate' you?
Never goes both ways does it?

[rhywlodes]

@Delphinium20s advice is great, it sounds like has been through something very similar and has fantastic boundaries for herself and her family.

I don't think you should be controlling what your children say.
The person in question is an adult, they should be able to handle the natural conversations that come up in a household with children (or anyone).

[AmericasfavoritefightingFrenchman]

I take your point @WallaceinAnderland But it was drilled into me at very young age not to be rude by talking about people in front of them and I almost never slip up if the person is present. I really think I’d be fine for myself.

DH has no such qualms though- regularly calls me ‘she’ to the DC when we’re all at the table despite my objections- and the DC are wild cards, so we will need a plan anyway.

[WallaceinAnderland]

Generally I don’t refer to people by pronouns if they’re in the room as that seems rude, so hopefully I’ll be fine.

I bet you will be surprised at how often you do use pronouns once you become aware of it. It's really hard to avoid in natural speech.

[AmericasfavoritefightingFrenchman]

Love the sinner hate the sin. Flipping autocorrect does not want me to use that phrase apparently

[AmericasfavoritefightingFrenchman]

Thanks @Twizbe that sounds practical. I have this sense that I’ll be expected to be at least as careful of YA as I might ask YA to be of DC.

Thats a good phrase @Delphinium20 . It’s interesting, the family have been evangelical Christians and I think they will be wary of anything that sounds like ‘love the sinner hate the sun’. There are bizarre overlaps and allegiances with religion and this gender stuff that are quite tricky to work out.

[AmericasfavoritefightingFrenchman]

Glad you got it @tobee

[tobee]

Whoops sorry just re read op.

[tobee]

I mean I know what cis supposed to mean but it sounds like a no event made into an event.

[tobee]

Sorry but what is cisgender? Born male or female and staying that way?

[Delphinium20]

One more thing, if they get militant about "educating you" you can always politely but firmly say, "we support and love you but our family doesn't share that belief system." I treat it like religion. I will respectfully be quiet in your home while you pray but I won't entertain a lecture to have my soul saved.

[Delphinium20]

I have family members with similar issues. The YA is rather entitled but we try to steer convos to neutral topics. YA is also deeply mentally ill so I prep my kids in advance as to how to handle him if he gets into a conflict with them. Primarily youngest DD just sticks by me and DH, and isn't ever alone with him. Oldest DD 18 can handle him better but I've prepped her in how to politely but firmly enforce boundaries around him. He used to be a lovely child but became a jerk once he took on a trans identity. He's exhausting and narcissistic. We are polite but don't cheer him in his delusional ramblings. Parents can see this but we don't do anything to rile him up either. There's a lot of avoidance behavior now at family gatherings and sadly the parents have sensed this over time. They aren't militant TRAs but are (naturally) sensitive regarding their child. They also starting drink too much these last years which worries me greatly.

Once, DD2 (who was not quite pre-teen at the time) used the correct sex pronoun and YA threw a fit and yelled at her. I firmly said, "we don't yell at children like that." I didn't apologize and refused to make DD2 (who was scared and angry at getting yelled at by older male relative) be nice. Frankly, that spoiled any positive relationship between YA and DD2 going forward but YA's parents also got a taste of the inappropriateness of YA's actions. They love DD2 and know I love YA but YA knows he can't be a shit to little girls in my presence.

You have to defend your children. I would be polite but never apologize for your children behaving normally.

[Twizbe]

I would speak to the adults and explain that your children are children. Young children will say what they see and that you hope the ADULTS will appreciate that and not make them feel bad or make a big deal if they get it wrong.

I'd tell your children to try to use their name and not he/she, but not make a deal out of it.

[AmericasfavoritefightingFrenchman]

We haven’t seen them in person for a long time, just because of distance and covid, but it makes things more delicate.

[AmericasfavoritefightingFrenchman]

I think DC will use the ‘obvious’ pronoun- or not, one of them is young enough to get mixed up with he and she still- and that will open them up to being corrected, and then the older ones will be curious. Visiting family will be evangelical in response. I’ve never spoken about any of this before with my DC and don’t want to yet. Oldest is 8.

[jellyfrizz]

Just treat them as you normally would. What has actually changed? Just the pronouns? As you say, you can avoid using them.

What are the children likely to say/ask to make things awkward?

[AmericasfavoritefightingFrenchman]

What do you expect smoothing things out would entail? Do you imagine laying out your viewpoint?

I don’t think parent will accept my difference of opinion or my reasons for not wanting my DC to ‘learn’ about this topic!

[Southstand]

Perhaps smooth things out before visit if kids likely to open a can of worms?

As a bare minimum I wouldn't want to be called cisgender not would I want 73 genders mentioned to young kids.

To keep the peace I'd use preferred pronouns and new names or avoid pronouns if at all possible.