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Julie Burchill: "Why I loathe the woke"
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beastlyslumber · 29/11/2021 19:14

Just thought I'd share this piece of joy for anyone else who is fond of Ms Burchill...

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PrincessNutella · 04/12/2021 20:46

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

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beastlyslumber · 04/12/2021 09:52

This is a US-centric conversation but they touch on some of the points made in this thread:

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Fifteentoes · 03/12/2021 17:14

@houseonthehill

Zipless Fuck is definitely Jong, and describes something entirely other than joyless sex.

Problem with Burchill is that she has been slowly Going Gammon - like her old mucker Tony Parsons did.

Not so sure about "slowly". I gave up reading Burchill years ago when it became clear to me she was basically a one trick pony. The old left/right double bluff: Present image initially as lefty radical, anti-establishment etc, introduce a relevant topic and then take a position that shocks everyone by actually challenging the prejudices of the left rather than those of the right. It's sooooo clever - well, the first 387 times, perhaps . . .
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FlibbertyGiblets · 03/12/2021 14:26

Hello last two posters, would you please make sure you have read all the posts by HazelCarbyFan thank you.

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AlfonsoTheUnrepentant · 03/12/2021 13:47

@Justanothermam

Please stop using this term in this way

Absolutely not. I am sick of people policing other people words.

OP, it was great video.

I agree. No. No one polices my language. Someone doesn't like how I speak? Too bad.
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Justanothermam · 03/12/2021 13:32

Please stop using this term in this way

Absolutely not. I am sick of people policing other people words.

OP, it was great video.

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Shedmistress · 03/12/2021 13:22

It is well known that the press don't publish stories if they don't want to.

What about the progressive Jessica Simpson? With all that suing of Asian women who wouldn't wax his balls? How much official press did that get?

I'm still reeling over the assumption that the UK universities are racism free 'it would never happen over here'. Oh my days. This is where [the misappropriation of] woke gets us.

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PrincessNutella · 03/12/2021 13:09

I think there's plenty of racism in countries who think they are above racism, like Canada. They have a deplorable history with their native peoples, for one thing. They had internment camps for Japanese people during World War II. They treated French people badly. And of course there was always and is going to be institutional and personal racism directed toward black Canadians as well.

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andyoldlabour · 03/12/2021 13:05

CharlieParley

Thanks for those links, particularly the 2018 one where the town hall was gatecrashed by the right wing mob.

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andyoldlabour · 03/12/2021 13:03

NoNotMeNoSiree

Why are you trying to turn this into a race issue, I don't care what colour someone is, I just want evidence to back up claims, particularly with an incident such as this one, which would have correctly resulted in a huge press story.

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PurgatoryOfPotholes · 03/12/2021 00:58

@beastlyslumber

Plenty of people said they'd be happy to use another word and a few said they already do. Just tell me what the correct word is. Fauxgressives? Establishment Ideologues? I don't mind as long as there's a word to describe these people/this movement.

When everyone already knows what you're talking about, I think any word works fine as a shorthand.

When you're trying to explain the culture wars to people who don't spend much time online, you're going to have to explain the concepts from ground level. I always go for pseudo-progressive, because it pairs with pseudo-intellectual and I think people can quickly get the concept.
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CharlieParley · 03/12/2021 00:50

@andyoldlabour

HazelCarbyFan

Could I ask you the following, because the incident which you described would be massively reported in the MSM.

When did it happen?
Exactly where did it happen?
How many people were involved?

Jordan Peterson is still working at the University of Toronto, but he first came to prominence on a free speech issue centred on Bill C-16 from September 2016 onwards. He later also expressed other views that caused controversy.

So if you want to look into this, it gives you maybe a four to five year window. A quick search nets a town hall meeting outside that window, in 2009 on racism, which was peaceful and found to be beneficial, but the described incidents leading up to it strongly support HazelCarbyFan's contention that racism is rife and serious at the university. Then there's one in 2017 following racist social media posts. There is also a 2018 town hall meeting on racism which was deliberately disrupted by people described as white supremacists (they violated the meeting and speaking rules). This was reported in the press.

I'm sure there will be more, because the University of Toronto seems unwilling to invest anywhere near the same amount of time and effort into tackling racism as they are investing in tackling transphobia (this is explicitly criticised in the 2017 article).

2009
torontoist.com/2009/11/a_lesson_on_blackface/

2017
www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2017/12/05/racist-cyberattacks-at-u-of-t-highlight-barriers-to-redressal.html

2018
www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/02/26/how-anti-racism-town-hall-gave-hate-mongers-an-outsized-place-at-the-table.html
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NoNotMeNoSiree · 02/12/2021 22:34

@andyoldlabour

HazelCarbyFan

Could I ask you the following, because the incident which you described would be massively reported in the MSM.

When did it happen?
Exactly where did it happen?
How many people were involved?

JFC.
Seriously?!
Do you do the inquisition and disbelief for all women on feminism, or do you save it especially for black women?
Next time someone posts that somebody said they had to declare their pronouns, or that they were sexually assaulted, I bet you'll be right in there asking them when, where, why and are they sure?
Won't you?
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CharlieParley · 02/12/2021 19:25

Can you really not see a difference between a word like mother and woke?

Mother is one of the oldest 23 words in English. It has endured for over 15,000 years. Every single language in the world has its equivalent word, of a similar age to the English one. And this is a word that only ever means female parent.

Woke has an original meaning of the past tense for wake or awaken, meaning waking up (attested since the 1300s). It was given an additional meaning in English only, and only one English dialect to boot - African American Vernacular English - starting in the 1920s to 1960s (chiefly). It was used in the context of one civil rights movement in one country in the decades since. It rose to prominence with the founding of the Black Lives Matter movement in 2013. And was almost immediately taken up by others engaged in activism focused on different issues, so much so that by 2017(!) it was entered into the Oxford English Dictionary with this definition:

"woke, adjective: Originally: well-informed, up-to-date. Now chiefly: alert to racial or social discrimination and injustice; frequently in stay woke."

Link to a Time magazine article from 2017 about this new entry below:

time.com/4830959/oxford-english-dictionary-woke/

(I mean if you're digging into the etymology of the word, you'll find that even amongst Black Americans usage prior to 2013 encompasses more than just "an awareness of racial issues".)

You really think that the evolution of these two words is the same?

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beastlyslumber · 02/12/2021 17:12

Plenty of people said they'd be happy to use another word and a few said they already do. Just tell me what the correct word is. Fauxgressives? Establishment Ideologues? I don't mind as long as there's a word to describe these people/this movement.

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foxgoosefinch · 02/12/2021 16:55

This issue is yet again, (non-black) feminists saying to black women: choose women or choose black.

I don’t understand your point, ListIs. Isn’t the entire thread about the fact that lots of people are saying that the “new” usage of “woke” doesn’t in fact mean black, but rather signifies “white people who think they are progressive but aren’t”?

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ListIsGettingLonger · 02/12/2021 15:50

@HazelCarbyFan Well done for standing your ground here. I see the usual posters adamant to hold onto the word like their lives depend on it, as if there's no possibility of finding another. You know, anything to stick it to the black people who complain "woke".

For me, it's like the way posters on this board complain about "cis", anyone who uses "woke" is automatically either ignorant and a bandwagon-follower, in my book, or a dog-whistler who's conveniently using it to mean 'this and the other kind'.

Although some...a few are ready to listen when they know.


This issue is yet again, (non-black) feminists saying to black women: choose women or choose black.

Can't work. We're both.

And Julie Burchill...pfft. The queen of it.

Enjoy your single issue parties. It's a privilege to only have one.

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FlibbertyGiblets · 02/12/2021 14:40

People are STILL not believing what a black woman has told us. Why is she held to a higher standard than someone white recounting an experience? Come ON. Cop on to yourselves.

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beastlyslumber · 02/12/2021 12:36

@ScribblingPixie

Thanks for posting this, OP. I found the points she makes about class and the way in which, in her opinion, the liberal middle class finds new ways to keep the working class down really interesting.

I thought that was really interesting, too. I've not heard that idea so clearly articulated before.
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ANewCreation · 02/12/2021 12:32

The word 'woman' is a sex-based term, describing the reality of the sex class of adult human females. We can trace its etymology, development and usage for 100s of years.

Now some people are hijacking/appropriating the meaning of woman to insist that it is actually not a sex based but a gender based term, (the people who identify as women/people who perform femininity, are women) something at its core inheritly sexist.

I have developed a gut-churning reaction to seeing or hearing woman used in a gendered way - because there is still such abundant need for the sex based usage. It messes with my ability to use my word to describe myself (and half the world's population). And how dare they take it and tell me what my word means. Why should I be forced to contort my language to appease those men who call themselves women?

Likewise the word 'woke'? First used to describe a powerful awakening to the reality of structural inequality, systemic injustice and racism; of personal, social, cultural and political consciousness raising; of awareness of racist policing. Still necessary and valuable today. We have to wake up to what is happening. 'When you see it, you can't unsee it', we say on the Gender issue...

Now 'woke' too is a word hijacked/appropriated by an identitarian movement which divides the world into those who are the privileged, performative, 'hyper-socially aware, self-designated gatekeepers of language and behaviour' and then everyone else.

It's a movement which is frequently racist (and sexist/ageist/classist/ableist/authoritarian etc) but cannot/will not see that is the case.

It identifies as 'woke' but absolutely isn't. And the word 'woke' is now almost always used pejoratively when really it shouldn't...

In the interview, Julie Burchill's criticism is based on the neo-usage of the word ie the identitarian movement rather than an authentic usage of 'woke'.

Just wondering, Hazel or anyone else who knows, how you might have seen this new identitarian movement described within black writing without using 'woke' as a term, because that might give us a linguistic way forward? I'm more than happy to use something else. Thanks in advance.

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andyoldlabour · 02/12/2021 12:02

HazelCarbyFan

Could I ask you the following, because the incident which you described would be massively reported in the MSM.

When did it happen?
Exactly where did it happen?
How many people were involved?

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ScribblingPixie · 02/12/2021 11:34

Thanks for posting this, OP. I found the points she makes about class and the way in which, in her opinion, the liberal middle class finds new ways to keep the working class down really interesting.

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/12/2021 10:08

Why are you more invested in what Triggernometry says than what Black women say?

Triggernometry have had plenty of black guests, including women, who think the identity politics approach isn't necessarily helpful. So you are coming from a particular perspective here.

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Lovelyricepudding · 02/12/2021 09:43

If your right to lionise racists because they happen to be on the same side for one issue, your right to use appropriated language is more important to you than the impact of that language on another group of women well so be it.

I am not trying to appropriate language but equally language evolves. The meaning of woke has changed. It no longer simply means you were asleep and now no longer are.

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AlphabetAerobics · 02/12/2021 09:37

Ah. The mystery of where Lucy & Yak drew inspiration has been solved.

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