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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

79 replies

InnocentWhenYouDream · 30/07/2015 09:50

OP posts:
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InnocentWhenYouDream · 30/07/2015 09:52

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InnocentWhenYouDream · 30/07/2015 09:52

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Postino · 30/07/2015 10:01

Thanks for the link. Signed and shared.

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BakingCookiesAndShit · 30/07/2015 10:31

From everything I've read, this has all been done in a really underhand way and seems to have been pushed mostly by the pimp lobby, who of course want decrim.

Signed as well.

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FloraFox · 30/07/2015 13:30

I wonder how AI Sweden feels about this. They were against the policy when this first came up.

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JustTheRightBullets · 30/07/2015 13:35

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BakingCookiesAndShit · 30/07/2015 17:12

Australia is also all for it, unsurprisingly, given the strength of the pimp lobby there

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ApocalypseThen · 30/07/2015 23:05

I resigned from amnesty over this ages ago. And when I'm stopped by their chuggers I do not waste the opportunity to tell them that, and why.

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TheLily1957 · 31/07/2015 13:15

Signed

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HirplesWithHaggis · 01/08/2015 04:30

So some of you are willing to sign a petition against a document you haven't read, based on evidence you haven't seen? Wow.

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JustTheRightBullets · 01/08/2015 06:24

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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BakingCookiesAndShit · 01/08/2015 10:13

Hirples... who says we haven't read or seen what AI has put out thus far? There have been several consultation documents which have been leaked by concerned AI officers. What would make you wish to make that accusation, btw?

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AskBasil · 01/08/2015 13:15

"So some of you are willing to sign a petition against a document you haven't read, based on evidence you haven't seen? Wow."

Who says we haven't seen the evidence?

Wow, what an assumption

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HermioneWeasley · 01/08/2015 13:22

I left AI over this

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Athenaviolet · 01/08/2015 13:34

AI has done a deal with the devil over this.

Shane on them for stamping all over women's rights.

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HirplesWithHaggis · 01/08/2015 13:37

Yes, we all know they will support decriminalisation, but until it's published (in October, is it?) we don't know all of their reasoning, or all of the evidence upon which it's based. That's not an "accusation" or an "assumption", it's a plain fact.

Yet some of you are willing to put your political ideology ahead of evidence-based decision making, when said decisions have indeed been made after two or more years of intensive debate. Confused

It's not about the "human right" of men to have sex. It's about keeeping sex workers - predominantly, but not exclusively, women - as safe as possible while they do work you wouldn't. Why would you be against that?

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HermioneWeasley · 01/08/2015 13:42

Hirples, it is not about keeping women safe, it is about their stated view that "sex is a human right so we should not seek to criminalise those who are unwilling or unable to access it by conventional means"

It's disgraceful

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SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 01/08/2015 13:47

I've left Amnesty because of this too. I was very sad to do so because I've supported them for most of my adult life but I can not support an organisation that promotes the idea that "sex is a human right so we should not seek to criminalise those who are unwilling or unable to access it by conventional means".

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HirplesWithHaggis · 01/08/2015 13:50

To me, it's very much about keeping sex workers as safe as possible. We can argue back and forth about whether men should have access to the bodies of women etc and God knows I've seen plenty of that, but the cold hard fact is that some people will always end up doing sex work (whether by "choice", force of circumstance or just force), it is or can be dangerous, and we should seek to ameliorate their situations as much as possible, for the sake of their humanity.

I don't see why anyone would be signing petitions to deny that.

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MollyMaDurga · 01/08/2015 14:03

I used to work with sex workers, in the Netherlands. Sex work is decriminalised over there. Women can work on the street, in a specific area, usually on an industrial estate. There, they can get condoms, physical check ups, is safety in numbers, social workers to help with whatever, tb and std medications. Women are seen. The Nordic model criminalises men and pimps and this would make it very hard if not impossible to do something like this with street workers. I know it's all very controversial but after my experience and reading around this issue I think to decriminalise sex work is a better way to protect women from predatory men. So it seems I agree with AI. It is a human rights issue, not for men buying sex but for women to work in a safe environment. Of course, ideal world scenario would have no sex work but faced with the world as it is and making it a bit better then the Nordic model seems not the best.

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NotCitrus · 01/08/2015 14:21

I've read the various papers arguing for and against criminalisation of sex work and conclude that the sex workers are safer when it's legal. The Nordic model which I supported when I was younger does not appear to be helping.

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NoTechnologicalBreakdown · 01/08/2015 15:23

I've signed it.

Hirples and Citrus, there have been a few debates about prostitution on here and I think you'll find some people on here are quite knowledgeable if you ask them (not me). The one I remember best was about the Green party policy on prostitution

A quick summary might be that while the effects of the Nordic model may need more study, it is well known from the German example that legalising prostitution, without changing the power structure of its operations, is seriously harmful to women.

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HirplesWithHaggis · 01/08/2015 15:28

I am familiar with the arguments re the Nordic model, I just don't agree with them. I don't see how laws which can result in women who have committed no criminal offence being made homeless, and losing care of their dc, benefit women.

No, I'm not particularly keen on the giant German megabrothels, but legalisation isn't the same as decriminalisation.

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NoTechnologicalBreakdown · 01/08/2015 15:44

You will have to educate me on the difference between decriminalisation and legalisation. To me it looks exactly like legalising the existing power structures.

I'm going to quote AskBasil quoting someone else, from the aforementioned thread, cos I can and it was a good summary.

AskBasil Wed 04-Mar-15 22:31:28 I'm just going to post SoccerFunDay's post from the WebChat thread because she said it so perfectly:

"The criminalisation/decriminalisation is all about non-ideal choices I think.

I’m pretty convinced that decriminalisation would make it safer for women who are already involved in sex work, particularly those who currently work on the streets. Surely they're less likely to get raped and beaten in fully legal socially acceptable brothels. I completely get this argument and think it's fair enough.

But what decriminalisation ALSO does is:

  1. set a societal norm that it's AOK to fuck people who, at a very basic level, have no wish to fuck you. This is immensely problematic when so many men already don't understand (or choose to ignore) the basic principle of consent.

  2. set a societal norm that women's bodies exist to be used sexually by men, and that so long as money changes hands this is also AOK. Women are orifices to be ejaculated into and their humanity is irrelevant

  3. make sex work a socially mandated career choice that will inevitably be most attractive to the most vulnerable, most abused, most fucked-up and most addicted very young girls and women - and then leave them at the mercy of 'punters', who are surely one of the most troubling, abusive groups in any society

  4. give a broad social mandate/approval to skeevy dickhead men who get off on pimping out vulnerable women and making money from the process

    So do we better protect women who are on the streets NOW, or do we work towards much more comprehensive protection of endless generations of women to come? Because you can't do both.

    Sex work is not like any other profession or job. It requires huge physical vulnerability and trust, and the correlation between 'men who hate women' and 'men who like paying to fuck women' is immense. Do we want to give a broad societal mandate to that?"
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HirplesWithHaggis · 01/08/2015 15:56

It's a good summary of the ideology behind the Nordic system, yes. I understand the argument, but my focus is more on protecting the women who are doing sex work now rather than on creating a mythologically ideal society at some point in the far distant future. AI have looked carefully at the situation with a global perspective - how long do you think it will be before societies like, say, rural India (where women are routinely immolated by their own families for imagined "honour crimes", including being raped) start to view women as people who can grant or withhold consent?

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