Dog walker for over enthusiastic dog loving puppy?

[MissShapesMissStakes]

Our first dog is now 10 months ish. He’s a lovely mini poodle. Very calm and lovely at home. Walks nicely on his lead (most of the time) and recall at 80% success rate (mostly long line unless deserted).

But he adores other dogs and desperately wants to play. He’s calmer now if he sees a dog - he used to pull madly on the lead and stand on his back legs crying to get to them. Now I can distract him if they aren’t really close. He will meet dogs and occasionally calmly have a sniff and move on when I say. But if there is a hint of the dog possibly even thinking about playing with him, he goes bonkers. Gets so over excited. He’s incredibly submissive and gets filthy rolling on his back, but then bounds about in their faces and wants to chase etc. It’s understandably too much for most dogs.

A few people have suggested it’s because he doesn’t really spend much time with pother dogs at all. We don’t need a dog walker or day care as someone is home most of every day.

I bumped into a lovely dog walker today. We got chatting and I asked her how she would deal with our dog on a walk with other dogs. She said he’s just a pup with not much experience and would learn fast. That she would walk him on his lead for a number of times first and that if we were flexible with time and day she could make sure he was with dogs that would tolerate him but might teach him some manners.

Do you think this might work?

Someone else has suggested day care. Or will he eventually grow out of this? It would be lovely to relax a little with him off his lead. But I’m very aware that many dogs wouldn’t want him in their face. Friendly or not. So I won’t be letting him off lead near other dogs until I can sort this.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

[SwimmingintheDeepBLUESea]

You need Dogs Trust Dog School - it doesn't matter where your dog came from and they hold lessons in various areas not just at their centers. The way they set it up means all dogs end up better socially without ever letting dogs get in the position where anydog gets scared, overwhelmed, too overexcited, frustrated, etc.

I did it with my cavalier. It worked miracles.

Also never let your dog greet every dog you pass on a walk, only some.

[Alwaysgrey]

This has been a very interesting thread. I’m going to book a trainer aswell as little dude looks nuts when he’s on the lead but he’s just so friendly but I’m aware this could get him into trouble.

[MissShapesMissStakes]

Thanks for your advice. Clearly there are two different ways of thinking about this.

I think that for now, I will keep working on his long line and get in touch with the trainer (who is brilliant) and ask her what she thinks about the next steps.

Kind of hoping he settles down as he grows up too. Apart from this over enthusiasm he’s been brilliant. I’ve met other dog walkers who have said ‘he’s just a puppy, he will calm down’. Then met a rotty owner who said he thinks he’s under exercised and that his dog was never overly excited about other dogs. But he really does get well exercised. He’s often off lead (we live next to a woods and go on the quiet paths) or long line (dropped) and we have a big garden and he adores chasing up and down having races with the kids and chasing balls.

I want to look into agility classes too eventually but thought I’d need to sort this issue with other dogs first. Again I will ask the trainer about it.

[OverFedStanley]

@thinkingaboutfostering that is exactly what I have said if you read my thread and the article -

[CarolDanvers]

Honestly I think it's ridiculous to say that a human can meet a dogs social needs entirely. There may be evidence backing this...would be interested in a link if so...but my own observations of constant daily work with multiple dogs tell me this just isn't true. I don't understand why you'd want to keep your dog from socialising extensively with his own kind on the grounds that he should only be interested in and focussed on you. It just doesn't make sense.

[AvocadosBeforeMortgages]

In my opinion a well socialised dog is one that can calmly walk past another dog, with perhaps a 2 second sniff and then on their way

In my opinion a well socialised dog must be able to cope with being able to have a brief and polite greeting with another dog, or indeed no greeting at all when appropriate. They must also be able to be recalled from other dogs.

However, the best socialised dogs do not have a one size fits all approach to other dogs, but are also able to initiate play with another dog, understand when that is or isn't appropriate (for instance, not bothering with elderly dogs), read another dog's signals to suggest they do or don't want to play (and communicate the same, peacefully unless ignored, to others), engage in reciprocal play behaviours, know when to take a breather during play and so on.

One of the purest pleasures of owning a dog is watching two compatible dogs chasing each other around the park and having great fun together. There's no way I'd want to deprive a dog of that.

However, I don't think that there's any way for a dog to gain those skills without a lot of practice and a bit of trial and error on the dog's part. The owner needs to brush up on canine body language so they can recognise when either dog is unhappy with the interaction, and remove their dog regardless of which dog is unhappy.

For example, I'll call my dog away if he's following a dog down a pathway to sniff its bum but being ignored. I'll call him away if the other dog is too big and bouncy (he can do big or bouncy!) for him and he's starting to look uncomfortable. This almost always reduces the chances of being told off to a very low level. It's been a long time since my largely reformed frustrated greeter has been told off (the behaviourist, called in for a totally unrelated matter, even commented on how well he read another dog's body language that he met in the park). He rarely feels the need to tell another dog off because if he's getting fed up I'll say to the other owner that "PestDog has probably had enough and might tell your dog off so we'll be on our way" and if the owner doesn't heed that warning worst case scenario would be a telling off with no teeth. This has also had the side effect that he's now learned to walk away from a scrap rather than escalating it.

I accept that there's an element of risk in these things, but it's reduced to a level where I'm comfortable with it and I think that the benefits far outweigh the risks.

[thinkingaboutfostering]

Overfed of course dogs are social animals it's utterly ridiculous to suggest otherwise!!!

[DogHairEverywhere]

You really need to work on you being more exciting than other dogs, so your dog wants to play with you, over and above anything else.
People think a well socialised dog is one that will play with other dogs, so they set up doggy play dates. The trouble with that, is that all these dogs learn, is that dogs are great to play with. After all, you have hand picked nice dogs and all they've learnt is that when they see a dog, they get to play and its all fine. Until the day they hurtle up to a reactive dog and it can go horribly wrong.

In my opinion a well socialised dog is one that can calmly walk past another dog, with perhaps a 2 second sniff and then on their way. The best way to achieve this is to make yourself more exciting than other dogs.
If you have a frustrated greeter, then you can work on being calm when dogs are nearby. You may need to do this at a fair distance to start with and then move closer over time, but i would be very cautious about letting my dog play with all and sundry. A lot of dogs are not equipped to deal with a rude puppy in their face and may well react inappropriately and scare or even hurt your dog.

[MultipleMum5]

Disclaimer- I am no expert

BUT I do have a 5 month old pup and I’ve worked on her recall, in dog heavy parks, since she could go out. He needs to learn, and the only way to do this is let him off lead.

I’m still training my girl, and some days she still gets it a bit wrong, and some days she gets it mostly right. Like yesterday was a right off, she was bounding up to other dogs and being too OTT, definitely had her deaf ears on. She is like your dog- just desperate to play!

Today I went to the middle of the park which is a big open space and worked on recalling her while there were dogs in the distance. If one walked by, I got her to sit and ignore it and treat treat treat. We walked around the park and I kept this going, today was a better day.

If I see another dog approaching on lead, I put her on the lead because I absolutely cannot trust her to to go bounding up and that could be disastrous. But if you take her to the local park, the dogs off lead SHOULD be well socialised. I think it’s crucial you attempt some off lead training.

[lorisparkle]

That gives me hope.....

[CarolDanvers]

In my experience extensive socialisation and growing out of it solves most problems. I've worked with many dogs and never met one yet that didn't calm right down by the 18 month mark.

[lorisparkle]

We have booked our 'over friendly' 9 month Labrador into a training course and they offer sessions on the weekend when they work on appropriate behaviour around other dogs e.g walking past them when on lead, and 'asking' to go and play when off lead.

My concern is that if he bounds over to a random dog and gets into trouble we will end up with another set of behavioural problems.

My plan is to prevent him playing with dogs we see out and about using a long lead until we have a rock solid recall away from dogs.

[OverFedStanley]

I do have more than one dog and they all prefer to be with me than with each other. They are happy in each others company but would rather be doing things with me than mooching with each other - at least someone likes my company One on one time with each dog is very important.


Interesting article here easy to read - as it goes on it talks about human need and dog need here

[SilviaSalmon]

I have sent my 12 month old dog out with dog walker twice a week to socialise since she was 9 months old.

I’m not sure if it’s getting slightly older or the opportunity to play with other dogs, but we’ve notice a real improvement.

[adaline]

I think the problem with letting a dog off to play freely (with the expectation that the puppy will be told off by the older dog), is that if it goes wrong, it can cause major, major problems down the line. Reactivity to other dogs isn't an easy problem to fix.

Of course socialisation is important but it's not the job of someone else's dog to teach your puppy how to behave. If your puppy is too much and the other dog gets fed up, it could a) do some physical damage and b) do lots of long-term emotional damage to your puppy who, in future, could end up being reactive towards other dogs.

Mine was attacked by another dog as a puppy and it caused us quite a few problems. We're working through it but it's a real work in progress and having a reactive dog isn't easy - at best it can be embarrassing but at worst it's upsetting - people judge you for having an "aggressive" dog - who isn't aggressive at all, just fearful.

[Nettleskeins]

well, my 6 month old puppy will hide between my legs if it is feeling a mite threatened/over stimulated. I take that as a CLEAR signal that it is getting too much and usually leave politely then.
Puppy lying down on its back repeatedly and being overly passive/submissive, is another Clear signal to me that other dog is too much.
Yelping excessively and hiding behind me (that doesn't happen really, but it once happened when a very big labrador puppy tried to play with a very small poodle puppy, and that was quickly curtailed)

Or just two dogs that arent able to be in the room together without one snapping and growling. (usually older one, being disturbed)

Overfed you have more than one dog though (if I am right in thinking?), so you may not be allowing your dog to genuinely miss the company of other dogs and experience just human companionship .

[Pigletpoglet]

I can't speak for all classes, but the people who run ours are incredibly friendly and welcoming, and happy to help out. Dogs are never off lead, so there's no play at all really - they even do a drill to help them ignore each other at the beginning!

[OverFedStanley]

Out of interest what Clear signals are you looking for from the calm well socialised dog @thinkingaboutfostering

[OverFedStanley]

Dogs are a social animal, and just socialising with humans won't meet all their needs- so by not offering your dog the chance to socialise, they will get more frustrated, more over enthusiastic and never learn doggy social skills. This is a common misconception and a really interesting point if you want a long scientific read there is loads of info on this. Dogs are social with humans that is why and how they became domesticated. Dogs worked out that humans are great for food and comfort. Dogs are happy to adapt to get their needs meet hence how well they can live with humans (unlike wolves!) Dogs do not need dog company - they may like it if it is there but they will always choose human over dogs. Hence why we have our lovely pets willing to live with us and not choosing to stay out in the wild.

thinkingaboutfostering the key point is as you say if well managed but for many dog owners they do not know when to step in and manage the situation - there are way too many let the dogs sort it out which causes masses of issues. People misread body language and just make the situation worse. Also most dog owners are not able to judge the correct dogs to use.

I do use my own stooge dogs in situation BUT and a big but this is in a very controlled situation.

Socialising is very very necessary but a lot of issues arise as dogs are being socialised and being pushed into situations that they can not deal with or have not been taught to deal with correctly.

Teaching a dog to be calm around other dogs is a vital skill letting your dog/puppy mug other dogs is not teaching them anything but antisocial behaviour.

Most good trainers will now not have the free for all puppy parties for the very reason that it only teaches inappropriate behaviour.

[thinkingaboutfostering]

Overfed I disagree.

Letting the puppy run with another well socialised dog is very unlikely to erupt into something if managed properly. The puppy has to learn what is and isn't acceptable somehow and the consequences. So long as the situation is managed correctly there is no reason for it to become out of hand. A well socialised dog will give both the puppy and their owner clear signals if they are not happy. The issue arises not from the puppy not reading the dog but the owners lack of ability in reading the dog.
Keeping a dog on the lead until it's calm will not solve the problem. The moment you let them go they will still have to learn the dogs rules and al, you will have done is delay it further. In my opinion it is really really irresponsible of owners not to have their dogs well socialised both on and off the lead as soon as possible. I understand there are some dogs that are reactive due to mistreatment and bad experiences but for those who have a good start in life socialising them well is the best tool we can equip them with to deal with the future.

[Alwaysgrey]

I have the same with my six month old poodle. I go out looking for dogs we don’t come across loads. He goes up on his hind legs and barks. But people have their dog off lead and tend to just wander up to him and to play so it makes it hard when I say I’m training him. I don’t know what to do. We cross roads be I get him to sit and treat him. But I’m so worried I’ll get it wrong. We have no dog parks locally and no places in doggy daycare. I’m panicked I’m ruining him as he’s not great on a lead either.

[Nettleskeins]

I think you should try your lovely dog walker.

[Nettleskeins]

A training class with lots of dogs is my idea of hell. Dog wants to play and is being told all the time to stay on the lead and concentrate. Last night I went again, and tbh it was just like being in a nightclub and being told you weren't allowed to dance.

[Nettleskeins]

x post. I think the recall thing works brilliantly when you have a dog walker because the dog walker has the food treats and the companion dogs!!! So when you call the dog the dog will always come back to where the other dogs are, and begins to associate coming back with socialising. Rather than being taken away from fun.

[MissShapesMissStakes]

Piglet - but wouldn’t all the other owners in such a class hate me?!