Mainstream 'education' for a non verbal child on the spectrum

[salondon]

To give you some background. My daughter is 4. Due to start reception in sept 2014. She is in a home/day care VB/ABA program 20hrs/week. Non verbal, not looking at books, videos, very limited receptive language, in potty training, needs help dressing up, lunch etc.

She is statemented. 15hrs/week term time during nursery year, 1:1. And 25 hrs when she goes to reception. under appeal for ABA.

I went to see one of the local infant school. The senco and headmistress were very open and honest. I went with one of the tutors. They said they'll hire the therapist as a low pay lsa(they said that is the funding they have, statement isn't about funding etc, let's leave that for another thread), however,(and the tutor and I could see this ourselves) the class rooms at big, 30 children and nowhere to take a child if you wanted to do any 1:1 work with them. They agree that since she'll have the 1:1 with her she'll do fine in reception which is play based. They agree that NT peers are best for her if she can tolerate the school life (sensory wise). But what happens in year 1. When she is expected to sit through lessons. they said if you then decide to send her to an ARP or SS, it will be a big hassle.

There are two ways of looking at this.

-year 1 is 24 months away. She might be ready for small lessons with 1:1 support by then. And she will have her own IEP

• they were honest about what they can and can't do. They said they can take 'care' of the child, but not educate her if she isn't able to attend most lessons. I don't quite agree because where my daughter is today, having any sort of academic expectation is futile. For now she needs life skills - crossing the road, asking for help, telling someone if she is in pain, feeding, toileting etc. functional communication. These are our targets on her ABA program. She can have tantrums but the therapists now know her well enough to avoid or divert them.

So if you were me, would you thank the school for being honest, request that they hire your tutor on their payroll(and I would top up the tutor) and send your child there for reception. and deal with year 1 issues later.

The biggest risk here is that she can't cope in the huge classroom, has no where to be taken away for 1:1 and we end up negotiating another placement with LEA(after going through tribunal for winning ABA in the first place).

Thanks and I hope I have written this in a manner that makes sense.

[Aswad]

Thank you @carriebradshawwithlessshoes she does have a diagnosis. I definitely want her to go to a SS but just worried as they are so few.
I’m on a FB group called deferred start for children with SEN or something similar and I’ve found them to be helpful. Thanks again

[carriebradshawwithlessshoes]

Does she have a diagnosis? We delayed for a year also. He had one to one at nursery… they seemed to get it easily by applying for funding? Another child did also.

my advice would be to let the proposed school see the EHCP as soon as you can and try and flush out whether they want to take DD and whether they think they can meet need based on what it says. If there’s any hesitation from them at all or any uncertainty I wouldn’t touch them with a barge pole. Starting her at a SS (the right one) will have many positives but I understand people want to try MS. With the benefit of hindsight I would have started DS at MS (possibly) but been quicker to jump when the school started to make the wrong noises.

good luck

[Aswad]

@carriebradshawwithlessshoes I’m trying to delay her for a year to get her EHCP sorted and toilet train. Staff at her nursery are wonderful but I don’t think she’s getting anywhere near enough 121 (understandably as they don’t have the funding )

[carriebradshawwithlessshoes]

Where are you currently with her schooling Aswad? How is she going on?

[Aswad]

@carriebradshawwithlessshoes this is exactly my fear. Schools will talk about their ‘aims, visions’ blah blah blah but the reality can be absolute bullshit
my DD is also non verbal and cannot grasp toilet training (she’s back to touching her poo) and my heart breaks. Not enough SS and to put her in mainstream and then move her again will be very traumatic

[carriebradshawwithlessshoes]

I would also be aware that of course they can’t tell you to take him out or admit that they aren’t inclusive but they can behave in such a way that you have no choice and they know what strings to pull and they will pull them hard if that’s what they want to achieve. Exactly like a constructive dismissal situation with an employee really.

[carriebradshawwithlessshoes]

The OP may not be on but I was exactly where you are and can share my views. DS is 6 and in MS.

We desperately wanted him to go there, still fundamentally do. Excellent school, lots of reassurances from the Head. Got him an EHCP sorted pre reception start and they started to get jittery… talk of him needing more help than they thought, they didn’t have the resources, would get a one to one but really they didn’t want to be involved long term with a child who had frequent toilet accidents, was non verbal etc. Too much hassle, they just didn’t know what to do. They could babysit him but not educate him plain and simple. And fundamentally they didn’t offer any reassurance that they could help him. Or that they really wanted to try.

We muddled through reception but they started to break us. Complaining all the time, calling all the time, using derogatory language to describe him. Mostly just complaining and having no answers.

Really they had our backs up against a wall from day 1. He’s going to a SS (an excellent one) in Sep, I have no idea if it will be any good but frankly it absolutely can’t be worse than what we have had and what he has had.

[Cazareeto1]

Hello, I know this thread is quite old, but I am finding myself in a similar situation, my youngest is 4 and nonverbal and much the same as you described in your post.

How is your daughter getting on?

I’m really worried about my son, he is 4 and is on the SEN report the phycologist was thick… my son can will sing, (not full songs but small bits like counting songs) and because of this he felt he should be in mainstream. He has zero safety awareness and has self care and incontinence issues. I have an older son who has high functioning autism he is 8 and is finding it difficult. I’m terrified. I hope you are still active on here I would love any advice if possible. Thank you x

[salondon]

I think you and I are talking about the same document. I am surely too tired or lazy to find the right bits.

[salondon]

Perfect thanks!

[sickofsocalledexperts]

www.nice.org.uk/nicemedia/live/14257/64948/64948.pdf


This is the full document I meant SAlondon

Yes it is a pain they do not reference the proper ABA professionals, but they are definitely recommending behaviourist methods for autism, which is a pretty important point given that NICE is the key body for all NHS practice, and I doubt a bog standard SEN teacher could claim even the faintest knowledge of behaviourism.

[ouryve]

Of course, some of the document is utter guff, but if you can find a local equivalent, it would be useful to use to remind schools of their duties.

[ouryve]

For those of you experiencing mainstream schools pulling faces about having to work with their kids with SN, our LA has a whole document about how it's all about promoting inclusion, called "All Together Better". It would be worth having a look around your own LA websites for similar consultations, since I should imagine many LAs had to do this sort of thing when the move away from SSs was forced.

[salondon]

Sick OF - Are you referring to this document?
www.nice.org.uk/nicemedia/live/14257/64946/64946.pdf

I actually think this document is going to make the appeal for using a specialist ABA consultant weaker (in comparison to the 'advice' given by the local SEN inclusion senior teacher!)

Points 1.4.3-1.4.6 talk about Behaviour intervention, but I still dont think the language is strongly in favour of using an ABA consultant with 10+ years experience in Behaviour intervention vs the SEN inclusion caring carrot.

Unless I am looking at a completely wrong document.

Merci!

[sickofsocalledexperts]

There is hopefully a good article coming in Sunday Times (magazine) in November about exactly your points Drowning - eg why the UK isn't using ABA more and updating itself with SEN advances. That plus the BBC4 programme on ABA (also due Nov) should help raise awareness. But we will never get past the layer of thick rock that is LA education policy if we try and effect change from the bottom up: we need government education ministers to notice, then change might one day come from top down. The NICE stuff helped a little too I think, as their final report recommended loads of behavioural methods, and not much SALT, even if it stopped short of mentioning the actual ABA profession. Some useful wordage in there for tribunals though..

[drowninginlaundry]

wouldn't be surprised if there was nothing, the toolkit and resources are so inadequate.
I interviewed someone today for a tutor position, qualified teacher, with a post grad in SEN. knew next to nothing about autism, had never heard of ABA. This is nuts, right? It's like I, having worked in finance, decided I wanted to be a GP, did a one year post grad certificate and was put in charge of 30 patients straight after. Because the damage you can do to young minds with no knowledge is JUST. AS. BAD.

We started arguing with Education in 2007, when DS was 3, and we are still hearing the exact same things. The package, the provision offered to him is now exactly the same as cobbled together in 2007. Same words, same concepts, same sodding TEACCH, same 'eclectic' (='making up as we go along) model - meanwhile educational science, pedagogic innovation and evidence based models are advancing. It's like the world that time forgot. Doesn't anyone ever update their skills in six years? Continuous professional development? What the fuck do they DO?

oh and someone up thread mentioned about 'caring' teaching assistants. It's a teaching job, so being 'caring' is kind of expected as part of the profession. It is not extra. Let's start demanding a bit more from the staff.

No wonder I drink...

[sickofsocalledexperts]

When my boy was in mainstream, I pretty much organised his whole curriculum myself, with help from the ABA tutors, including devising or sending in my own simple work sheets. It suited me (ex teacher) but I was shocked that there was no "bank" of resources available for SEN teaching. There should be a bunch of worksheets or lesson.plans linked to every subsection of the P scales, but I don't think that exists. Or maybe it does, but no-one bothers to find out?

[drowninginlaundry]

It's shit here, the UK special education system is so broken beyond repair it will take a seismic shift in attitudes FROM WITHIN to change. And they won't unless we make them.

The school where we want our DS to go is not happy, but tough shit. They all support inclusion, don't they, as long as it's done somewhere else, or if it has to be their school, as long as it is not too complicated and doesn't require teachers to think too much. We get the 'we are not sure if we can meet his needs' - well of course you can't right now but you go away and work out a way in which you can and then we'll talk again. It's not rocket science. Lack of training, poorly trained teachers, breeds fear and ignorance. The Scandis were pretty shocked to hear you can qualify as a teacher in just a year. I am sure there are wonderful teachers out there doing great work in schools, but if you really are to put your money where your mouth is and allow all children educated in mainstream (as is the law, helloooo...) then the current knowledge base is desperately inadequate.

In Finland, my sister is a SEN teacher in a special school, she has a class of 9 with severe learning difficulties and/or autism, one child is blind, one child only speaks a foreign language in addition to his needs, one has mobility issues. ALL these children spend a majority of their week in mainstream, with all subjects worked out individually depending on what can or cannot be accessed. And they make progress and they are all learning to read. It works because as a nation they decided to make it work.

go on warrior mums, go get 'em, be the change

[zumbaleena]

nice stuff drowing! inspired me too.. u r strong!

[salondon]

Thank You everyone for your responses. Gives me lots of options to think about.

Drowing, These are golden words:

OP, you know you can request mainstream for your DD (it's the law, they can't even argue it). As for the 'it'll be a hassle to move her to SS later' - it's bullshit. As for them not being able to 'educate her if she can't sit through a lesson' - that's bullshit too. As for the space limitations - VB can take place anywhere. Be creative about this, demand that that teaching staff is creative about it and arranges an education to meet your child's needs. Use the Statement Annual Review to see if provision needs to be beefed up but based on how you have described your DD, I would definitely insist on mainstream and work out a support package that allows her to succeed.

[OneInEight]

That sounds impressive drowning. I think one of the key things to look for in a school is 'flexibility' . ds2 has just started in an ARP and one of the key things that made me willing to give it a try was that each child in the unit accessed a different set of lessons in the mainstream class according to their needs.

[theDudesmummy]

Drowning that is a very inspirational post! My DS is certainly going to need a flexible/individualised education (spiky profile, good at some things, very limited at others) and I hope I can kick ass like you if I need to do so in order to get it!

[sickofsocalledexperts]

Wow drowning - you go, girl! You should write an article about this, it is sad how we think we are great on SEN and yet are really lagging behind other countries, especially thse in Scandinavia.

[drowninginlaundry]

Our DS1 is a barely verbal, severely autistic 9 year old. He went from mainstream to SS for year 3 and spent four terms in a special school, these four terms were catastrophic for his learning and development. There was such a marked difference in expectations and emphasis that not only did he not learn anything, his regressed (not just an opinion, we have baseline data). We took him out, put him on a VB programme to undo some of the damage, and he is now going back into mainstream with VB support once my legal team have kicked the LA's lying cheating sorry ass in the tribunal.

I am now refusing accept the 'one size fits all' archaic SEN model so DS will be going in at a lower year group (he should be in year 5 but he will probably enroll in year 4) and access lessons across the age groups depending on what he CAN do in each subject, with emphasis on the 'can'. So he might join Year 1 in literacy, Year 3 in maths, year 5 for PE, and so on. He will have individual IEP/curriculum work with ABA support with BCBA consultant doing the programming. Individual weekly one on one SALT and OT sessions in the school, feeds into daily IEP work. A peer group with social and language models to learn from.

Interestingly, I have just returned from a pan-european Special Ed teacher meet-up (I am not a SEN teacher but my sister is so I tagged along). The Finnish teachers, on hearing about my woes and adventures in mainstream-special school land, commented that our rigid, unflexible and segregated system that pays lip service to inclusion is very much like they had in the 1970s. The world and pedagogic thinking has moved on (just not in the UK), and it is completely possible to build an education around the child based on HIS/HER needs. They do it in Finland, exactly the way explained above, it's called flexible curriculum. However, it requires an open mind and a willingness to discard established age old practices and I haven't met very many teachers - special or mainstream - who have these. Also, the Finnish SEN model puts a lot of emphasis on academics in the primary phase, so regardless of abilities all children do literacy, maths and science from the national curriculum, at a level they are capable of making progress. And yes we might move there if this placement fails, I am that impressed with what I know about education there.

OP, you know you can request mainstream for your DD (it's the law, they can't even argue it). As for the 'it'll be a hassle to move her to SS later' - it's bullshit. As for them not being able to 'educate her if she can't sit through a lesson' - that's bullshit too. As for the space limitations - VB can take place anywhere. Be creative about this, demand that that teaching staff is creative about it and arranges an education to meet your child's needs. Use the Statement Annual Review to see if provision needs to be beefed up but based on how you have described your DD, I would definitely insist on mainstream and work out a support package that allows her to succeed.

[theDudesmummy]

Yes, I would agree with that, the way I chose our school was a lot to do with gut feeling, I had a good impression the minute I walked in, and even more so after speaking to the head. Some other schools I had not even bothered to look at (especially goes for the private ones) because of the negative attitude that came through on initial emails and phone conversations. (Our nearest school is actually an Ofsted Outstanding and the kind of school that people pay literally hundreds of thousands extra on their house or move from their own houses to rented houses to be in the catchment area of. And they were completely lacking in enthusiasm).