12 year old daughter tearing the family apart and about to be kicked out of school.

[ohtheholidays]

I am at a loss as what to do anymore.I have worked with children in the past for many years.I worked with children that had a statement of educational need (SEN)I have worked with children that have a physical disability,I have worked with children that have no extra needs and I have worked with children that were struggling at school not because of an SEN or a disability but a chaotic or neglectful home life.

Our daughter has been really hard to live with and has been really hard work for any school she has attended since she was 3 years old.

She would get in to trouble at Nursery at 3 years old,she is my 4th child and this wasn't something I'd ever had with her 3 older brothers.The brother closest in age to our daughter is autistic and registered disabled.I would have thought he might have more trouble with school and home life but he's easier to parent and pretty well behaved at school.

We've always given her lots of attention and our time,none of the children miss out on school trips,fetes,days out,holidays,celebrations for Birthdays,Christmas,Easter anything really.

I've always been very patient with all 5 of our children,we have a youngest daughter,she is 7 and has a lot of disability's and is autistic(her autism is more extreme than her brother's)she can be really hard work at home but is getting better and is very well behaved and loved at school.

Our DD12 was 5 when our youngest was born,the unbelievable behavior with our oldest DD started 2 years before.

She started at Nursery and carried that on into infants school.She would be constantly internally excluded at infants.We removed our children from the school and home schooled for a year.Not because of our daughters behavior(we had 3 children attending the same school daughter and son at infants and second oldest son at juniors)but because the school was going seriously down hill,lots of other family's removed they're children just after we removed ours.

All 3 children went on to a different primary school,our second oldest got on extremely well there,our youngest son was a very popular student as well but our daughter started again within a few weeks of being there.There was no bullying,she was liked by the other children and they're parents.Constantly invited to play dates and party's,yet once again she started for the teachers.

She was internally excluded,she was suspended and then finally she was expelled.

We did everything we could,we supported both her schools and the nursery she'd attended.We attended every meeting the schools set up and we set up some of our own.We sort help and advice from different avenues.We tried punishments,we tried talking,rewards you name it we tried it!

She was accepted after a short while at a different primary school and they were amazing with her.She had one day of internal exclusion and we did have a few problems with bullying some her,some other students.So not all plain sailing but better than before.

Now she is in her first year of secondary school and My God I want to give up.She has been internally excluded,suspended for one day and yet again she will suspended on Monday next week.There has been physically attacking teachers,revolting language,attacking other students,cyber bullying.She hasn't been all to blame and the Head and her Head of Year have told us this.They say she is an easy target for some of the students as they say or do something and she bites and then gets in trouble.

We have tried to reason with her and explain to her that she is getting it double.They get away with hurting or insulting her and then she is the one that gets punished.The school agree with me and have tried to tell her the same.

She was the first victim of the cyber bullying,the attacks and bullying.The school are dealing with the other children.But the problem is she's done herself no favors because of the way she treats everyone else.

[FamilyAngel]

ohtheholidays, I hope you have now got some help. My gut feeling is that she is not doing this deliberately and therefore could be on the autism spectrum herself. I worked with a family once where both parents were psychologists, one of them a child psychologist and yet they had serious problems with their daughter. At the time I had little experience of Aspergers but discovering how she reacted to the energy in the house or when she was surrounded by class mates started to help unravel the problems she was having. If your daughter responded well to the equine therapy I would highly recommend that you encourage this. Horses have an amazing connection with these children and can often help them understand about their emotions in a way they would not accept from a human being. I wish you well

[Athenaviolet]

She needs a proper asd assessment.

It doesn't sound like her school's working for her, I'd move her.

Does she have her own room? Even though you say she's getting lots of attention I'd try to make more effort for you or DP to spend a lot of one to one time with her over the summer. Could one of you take her away for a weekend?

There is a lot going on in her life.

What does she think the problem is? At 12 she should have some insight/ability to communicate what she likes/doesn't like about her life and why she finds so much so hard.

[ohtheholidays]

Thank you Emily,that was a lovely message and I really do appreciate the support.

I was going to phone Camhs up tomorrow morning(as soon as they open)I'll use your advice for when I speak to them.

Good Luck with your DS I hope you get the support and help you want.x

[ButEmilylovedhim]

Jeez, you poor woman. What a thing to go through. I'm so sorry . You're amazing, I would not have coped. So hope you get some help soon.

My ds is being treated at camhs for a different issue but this advice will stand anyway. Keep phoning them up. Don't patiently wait for an assessment/ appointment. You'll be waiting a loooong time. They have a duty clinician available to talk on the phone everyday. They will probably take your number and phone you back. Tell them everything, don't hold back. I'd tell them what happened when she was three so they have the full background. If you feel tearful, don't be brave and hold them back, they need to know how it is affecting you all. If by some chance this isn't their area of expertise then at least you'll know earlier rather than later. Hope this helps. Much, much sympathy x

[ohtheholidays]

Sorry I should have said she didn't only bite me when I was trying to stop breastfeeding it was much worse than that sadly.

She smashed a pair of glasses of my face,she'd smashed them into my face seconds before and managed to cut my face open.She ripped my earrings out of my ears and that ripped my ear lobes open and then she pulled a few clumps of hair out of my head at the roots.

I was trying to stop her the whole time,she slapped me round the face(that left welt marks on my face for nearly 2 weeks)and she managed to draw blood on my breasts ,my neck and my chest.That's where I still have some of the scars.

I hate saying that one of my own children did that.I love her with all my heart and she is a lovely little girl,I don't want help for myself I just want help for her.I know I am a very patient person in general and even more so when it comes to children so I know I haven't struggled as much with the behavior as my husband,her siblings and her teachers have.

But I'd hate for her to look back on her childhood and feel any shame or guilt or god forbid for her to have any strained relationships with her siblings or any of the friends she grew up with.

[ragged]

It's odd that she's fine at activities but a nightmare elsewhere.

CAMHS do NOT deal with ODD or PDA or ASD in our area. They only deal with mental illness (like depression). Doesn't OP need an Ed-Psych for the 3-letter-acronym conditions? Is it £700 to get a private Ed-Psych?

[howabout]

A wee bit off topic op but in response to Miscellaneous. Just wanted to mention my DH is disabled and I do the caring required. However I do consider my DC to be young carers as their daily life is impacted. They only have one parent able to do "physical" things with them and my resources are split between them and my DH. They also have to deal with things like making sure facilities are in place if my DH comes to a school event eg. I cannot leave my DH alone overnight and so rarely get time away with them. Holidays with DH have to accommodate his needs. There are numerous other small and large issues.
I don't want to give the impression that my or other DC are deprived by having a disabled parent or sibling but I am surprised others would not consider them to be carers. I do share the reluctance not to define or limit my DC by their circumstances.
My DC do not go to young carers but have a couple of supportive slightly older friends who are part of the young carers network. This is very positive for them.

[MiscellaneousAssortment]

By the way I can see a few people are suggesting young carer charities networks etc.

I'm disabled and have a young son. I had exactly the same reaction as you when this stuff is mentioned. I do everything and Ds does no caring, and I would stake my life on that!

I was told that it's just the name that reaches some kind of threshold of need, but that lots of the stuff these charities do is suitable for all children with someone disabled in their family.

I haven't done it yet but I think I might when DS is older. Although he will NEVER be a young carer!

[sanfairyanne]

my sister was like this. finally made sense when we realised aspergers in girls can be like this. my brother has aspergers and is completely different. it was v hard

[Georgina1975]

This sounds so tough.

It doesn't matter about your experience with youngsters. I mean, I hope you're not blaming yourselves for not being able to deal with her. It is completely different when it is your own DC.

My thoughts are some kind of underlying issue (ASD has been mentioned) that is exacerbated by contextual circumstances. Perhaps she finds the family dynamic (and recent-ish changes such as your disability) stressful, but finds it difficult to articulate those feelings in a way that isn't harmful. Add puberty into the mix...

Access to a young carers network might help. I think that children can feel the weight of responsibility for family members even if they are not directly involved in care. It might also be good for her to socialise with other youngsters who have a less standard (sorry about the clumsy phrase) family set-up too. A friend of mine found this helpful for her youngest DS - he had a period of family disability being used as a weapon at school and found it a relief to be around other kids for whom it was just normal family life.

[fiveacres]

I think family dynamics can be massively complicated and there is no blame attached to anyone when children are sods sometimes!

So for example - at 3, she bit you hard and caused a big reaction. I think we all know 3 year olds aren't intrinsically evil just irritating so presumably the behaviour was for a reaction. I think she may well have learned this extreme behaviour gets attention and shocked voices and horror from her family.

Children are different. I was horrified to have negative attention as a kid. Some children, however, will rather ANYTHING than risk being an afterthought!

That's not easy in a big family

[ohtheholidays]

I know what your saying.I've worked with children since I was 16.I've helped other parents get diagnosis for they're children,some of them after years of trying,some of them without ever having to meet the child/children in question.

[DownWithThisTypeOfThing]

fiveacres

I know you say she has one on one time with both of you but still, there's a family with five children, two with additional needs. I'm not for a moment condoning her behaviour but could this be her 'thing', her 'identity' - I am the naughty one?

I was thinking this.

[fiveacres]

I appreciate that must have been horrible. I think it's just easy sometimes for additional needs to be lost in big families and for children to play to their own 'role' - the baby, the naughty one, the good child - do you see what I mean? It's partly about reestablishing behaviour patterns.

No blame attached to you though!

[ohtheholidays]

ImperialBlether that's what myself and my husband have been saying for a long time now.It's just trying to get her help and a diagnosis.

[ohtheholidays]

fiveacres there were 4 children when this all started and my youngest son wasn't showing signs of autism then.

Just before she was 3 and I was trying to stop breastfeeding her she attacked me,it was so violently that it made both her oldest brothers scream,it frightened the life out of them and I was left with marks for weeks and a few scars that still haven't gone.

[ImperialBlether]

Have you heard of pathological demand avoidance - PDA? It's a part of the autism spectrum. Given two of your other children have autism, might this be possible?

[ohtheholidays]

Finola1step no not so far and she has seen a few different specialists now.Were now just waiting to see what Camhs can help us do for her.

[fiveacres]

I know you say she has one on one time with both of you but still, there's a family with five children, two with additional needs. I'm not for a moment condoning her behaviour but could this be her 'thing', her 'identity' - I am the naughty one?

[ohtheholidays]

She attends Judo every week,she's really good at it and her Sensei is very fond of her and she's made a lot of friends there as well.

She's also part of a Gymnastics club and when she was younger she attended Gardening clubs,chess club,computer club and was a cheerleader also.Every club she has attended she's enjoyed and they've all been her choice.

She's done some work with a specialist Horse school where they use the Horses to help children.She loved that and were setting that up for her again.

howabout this behavior all started well before I became ill and disabled and before I had our youngest who is disabled and before her older brother showed any signs or behavior of being autistic.

Respite care and young carers I know there are a lot of children that are carers for disabled parents or siblings and I know that can be extremely hard I was one of those children.But that doesn't apply to any of our children.Honestly it doesn't.

None of the children are ever responsible for myself or either of they're disabled siblings.Myself and My husband really do do it all on our own.

Her 2 oldest brothers do take her out and they spoil her when they do,they'll take her into town,out for lunch,the cinema,the park,out with them and they're friends.

She has one on one time with me and she gets one on one time with her Dad.We manage to do that for all the children.

[Finola1step]

Has she been assessed within ASD? Possible PDA springs to mind from your descriptions.

[muffintop1]

This sounds so hard for you. My kids are younger but I do worry about how they will be in secondary school.
Do you think finding her a hobby or sport that she loves would help? Maybe it would motivate better behaviour and give her confidence and nice friendships? I do hope things improve soon for you.

[howabout]

Every sympathy for you and your dd. It is not easy being 12 and she has and always has had a lot to cope with. Middle child with disabled siblings either side and a parent with health issues. Also history of disrupted schooling. My normal middle child dd12 can be a pain and I doubt she or many others would cope with all this.
Do you have a young carers network she could access?
What sort of respite care do you have in place to give her a break away?
Are her 2 oldest siblings old enough to be able to take her out of her situation sometimes?
I just wanted to give her a big hug and a bit of an outsiders perspective.

[ohtheholidays]

Thank you everyone for the support and suggestions.

She has had sessions with different specialists when she was younger.

We are seeking help from Camhs but it is taking ages.Our Dr now realizes how hard things have become for us all so they are now supporting us.Myself,my DH our daughters school and our DR's have now all contacted Camhs.

BreamakerFan we have had a camera on in the house for the safety of the other children.It just makes her worse.