Please help, end of my tether re ‘bullying’ situation

[bendmeoverbackwards]

I have 3 dds, aged 24, 22 and 18. All living at home currently (older two graduated and returned home).

Dd3 is autistic (but has never accepted the diagnosis). A few years ago almost overnight she developed a strong dislike/fear of dd1. This went on for 6 months then out of the blue dd3 messaged dd1 to say sorry. All was fine for a while. Then 18 months ago it happened again. Dd3 won’t come into a room if dd1 is there and has been calling her ‘it’ and ‘thing’ 😢

And yet dd3 claims her older sister is the bully. Dd1’s crimes are -

-apparently chasing dd3 with a knife - what actually happened was that dd1 was holding a fork and made stabbing motions by the side of her body in frustration. This was about a year ago but dd3 says she feels unsafe.

-recently dd1 and dd3 had a text exchange and dd1 said ‘all this drama and you can’t see that you’re autistic?’ Dd3 has taken great offence to this and said the comment was ‘disgusting’.

All of this sounds very petty written down and I should probably stay out of it but I want to support both of them especially dd1 who I don’t think has done much wrong.

Should add that dd1 is probably autistic too but hasn’t been diagnosed. She is quite an inflexible thinker and can have a passive aggressive side. But she does not deserve this treatment by her youngest sister.

Dd2 gets on ok with both her sisters.

Is she not a young adult at 18? Is PDA diagnosed or self/you diagnosed?
Even if she does have this, absolutely it should not mean no boundaries!
I know it's a very popular MN thing
" my child has ODD/PDA, they can't possibly be asked to do anything, have any demands/requests made of them, I make sure that I and the rest of the family dance attendance and do whatever they want."
but thankfully seen little of this else where!
How will all these children and young adults fare in society when they're used to the world revolving around them, and then it doesn't?

Yes. It absolutely is okay to have boundaries even if your adult child has a pervasive drive for autonomy.

If we can think of PDA in that way - the person has a high need for autonomy, rather than avoiding demands, it becomes easier to deal with.

I am autistic and ADHD (and used to be a psychologist in CAMHS). I definitely have a high need for autonomy, I can have very strong inner responses to feeling like I'm being told what to do or having demands made of me that I have no choice about (even when that's just DH wanting to talk about house jobs when I'm feeling too tired to engage). I have learned to manage this internally, because I fully know that to externalise my response would be unreasonable and make life difficult for others. Or, to say no in a way the other person won't find stroppy "DH, I'm sorry, I'm tired from work and can't give this my brain power right now but I'm happy to do it in the morning" instead of the "fuck off with this bullshit" that is screaming inside my head!

PDA profile is a reason to find certain things more difficult and need accommodations and scaffolding, such as being offered choices like "you can eat your dinner with the family or you can come down and serve yourself and eat in your room if you prefer". It's not an excuse to demand being waited on, or treat others like crap, and it doesn't get you out of having to respect the boundaries and autonomy of others.

The positive side of having this set of traits is thinking for yourself, not going along with the crowd, wanting things to be fair and equitable, not being afraid to do things in a different way.

Excellent explanation.

My 20yr old dd had a late ASD diagnosis, that she hated. We spent a lot of time going over the differences in her life on the day before to the day after diagnosis. Not much, just possession of a piece of paper. Pointed out that it was “her” diagnosis and she didn’t need to use it/tell anyone/do anything with it if she didn’t want to. She was amazed how much easier life in college was, once she shared it with a select few staff. Many others are still to this day unaware.

Her behaviour at home with her sister could be very fraught at times. If I so much as hinted she may be in the wrong, all hell would break lose. In a ‘calm’ moment we were able to have a relatively frank conversation about it, she was probably around the same age as your dd at the time. Name calling/bad behaviour was not going to be tolerated and frankly she was old enough to know better. “Demands” upon her were reduced - she could eat in her room if she wanted to, but would have to come fetch and return dishes to kitchen. Just basic good manners/behaviour - just like before diagnosis - are required. I also keep my phone on silent and yes, just ignore it. Our house really isn’t that big if she wants me!!

It can be an exhausting minefield negotiating life with them. It made a big difference reading something on here once about them being emotionally about 6 (I think) years behind their actual age. Thinking of her as a hormonal, stroppy tween made much more sense of her actions and also made her sister laugh.
We do cut her some slack, but out and out rudeness or bad behaviour will not be tolerated.
Stay strong OP it can be so exhausting xx

Thank you @feebeecat my dd is definitely emotionally behind for her age. Is your dd more mature now at 20?

She’s ’getting there’ but I’d say she’s still behind. She is at uni and surviving, but I have more input (god bless FaceTime) than I do with her sister. I do try and step back, but realised I spent a lot of time explaining social situations to her as she really struggled with these.
She is excellent at masking, surprises me with some of the things she now does, but totally regresses when she comes home. We allow her a couple of days to readjust and then back to, well, excessively parenting - that’s when I now find the age adjustment to make more sense. She “knows” how to behave, just needs a little more re enforcement. Getting there though, am sure your dd will too, they just need a little more/take a little longer

Thank you @feebeecat at the moment I just can’t see her acting like a mature adult but I think I’ll just have to be patient.

Dh and I are going to think carefully about a reset and putting in some boundaries for all 3 of them. I’m feeling quite positive about this but also aware that I haven’t managed to stick to it in the past.

With the food thing, if I say to dd3 she doesn’t have to join the dinner table (although the expectation is that she does) but if not, she has to collect her own food and I won’t be bringing it - she’ll probably say she ‘can’t’ do that if dd1 is there. @LAMPS1 any suggestions for managing this?

I don’t think I could ever class her as ‘mature’, I settle for basically functioning. That said, I am currently involved in a great debate about why she can’t possibly do something that she really needs to, that has time constraints and will be to her own detriment if she doesn’t. PDA is strong in this one - all I can do is point out the obvious consequences, reinforce that it is HER decision and step away. Her last text just read “fineeeee”. Infuriating, but we will get there 😬

With the food thing, if I say to dd3 she doesn’t have to join the dinner table (although the expectation is that she does) but if not, she has to collect her own food and I won’t be bringing it - she’ll probably say she ‘can’t’ do that if dd1 is there. any suggestions for managing this?

I think DD3, must now begin to learn that there are consequences to her actions, but more so, that you won’t be taking sides. And you won’t tolerate squabbles or bad feeling in the house.
I think you are already on board with that and willing to try a fresh start.

If you genuinely think it’s a step too far for now,( because of her poor mental health) that she eats at the table with you all, and want to allow her to eat on her own in her bedroom away from normal social skill developmental opportunities, then at least she should collect her food herself from the table whether DD1 is there or not. That has to be the objective.

In response to her saying ‘I can’t do that if DD1 is there, I would reiterate how vindictive that is towards DD1 and how you refuse to be drawn in to take sides, and how you must all learn get along if wanting to continue living at home. etc etc. And I would ask her for a solution to her dilemma … a solution which is in the limits of the new boundaries. She has to be prepared to compromise somehow.

If she proves she really would rather starve than be in the same room as DD1 and you feel it’s more to do with her neurodiversity, rather than being vindictive, the only suggestion is to do what you would for a very young child and agree to put her meal on a small table just outside the room where you are all eating, - in such a position that she can’t see DD1 when she collects it. And then gradually over time, move the table a few inches closer to the door and have DD1 gradually move into view.
I really hope that’s not necessary though.
DD3 has to agree to help herself sooner rather than later.

Good luck with the re-set OP.

Also OP, If DD3 insists she isn’t being mean but she just can’t be in the same room because of her mental health issues, then she must see a GP for referral to appropriate professional help. She can’t have it all her own way.
Is she being vindictive ? - in which case stop it.
Or is she suffering with a ND issue in which case she has to agree to seek help as you simply aren’t qualified enough to help her properly.

Thank you @LAMPS1 dd usually eats in our small downstairs study (I don’t want hot food in bedrooms) or she waits till later on when the kitchen is free.

I have tried to talk to her about dd1 but she just reiterates that she’s a bully and why should she (dd3) not stick up for herself. Her ‘solution’ would be that dd1 moves out 🤷‍♀️

Dd3 has also been banishing people from the kitchen because she wants to eat alone. Sometimes I don’t mind if it’s not inconvenient but other times I might be in the middle of cooking and she wants me out of there. So fed up with this as well.

I think @LAMPS1 has great advice. You can't side with DD3 on this. What's the danger re being in a room with her sister or other people being in the kitchen with her?
Absolutely either shes the bully and she's being vindictive or her mental health requires significant professional input. So which is it?

The person who has to move out is the person who is unhappy with your fresh start boundaries. That is, the person who can’t (or doesn’t want to) get on with the rest of the family group. The person bringing stress to the family.

DD1 isn’t unhappy at home. She quietly gets on with it as far as I can tell, give or take the odd wind up with stabbing her fork at DD3 which you will have rectified with the new rules. She gives to work and pays her rent.
Everybody must behave properly …kindly and respectfully. No aggression. No vindictiveness. No squabbling. All past squabbles left behind.

Nobody dictates the rules of the household except the home owners under whose roof everybody else lives. If DD3 wants to make suggestions as to who can be in the kitchen at any one time, she brings that suggestion to the table at meal times and you all listen and are allowed to make comments respectfully which she, in turn, must also listen respectfully to. Then you, the home owner, decides whether or not to go along with that suggestion. Your word is final. Anybody who disagrees is free to leave the family group and live elsewhere in a place more suitable to their needs.

OP, nobody would be telling me or any of my children to get out of my kitchen or other living areas. The person making that demand would be the one making the adjustments, (adjustments to put up with your decision, or to find a better deal elsewhere,) nobody else.

Obviously you can’t ask DD3 to leave but you can and should let her know that that is the deal. That she isn’t a prisoner in your home. And if she continues to complain and dictate, that’s what she should bear in mind. Tune for her to grow up a little bit and realise the household doesn’t revolve around her.
Ask DD3 to sit down with the family at the table to explain how DD1 is still bullying her. Remind her that all past grievances have been wiped out with the fresh start and she can no longer hold on to them.

@LAMPS1 do you want to move in with us? I would happily pay good money 😂

Seriously thank you so much and to everyone else who has taken the time to reply, I really appreciate it. This is the wake up call I need.

I thought I had been doing the right thing by meeting dd3’s ND needs. But I realise the pendulum has swung way too far. And it won’t do her any favours in the long run.

Wishing everyone a good weekend and many thanks again ❤️

Dd3 has also been banishing people from the kitchen because she wants to eat alone.

Oh hell no. Not surprised you're fed up with that.

I understand wanting to eat alone, and allowing her to do that feels like a reasonable adjustment for an ND young person who can't always cope with eating with others. But commandeering the kitchen as and when she wants and throwing others out is rude, selfish and unreasonable.

In my former CAMHS life, I often worked with parents who wouldn't make any accommodations for their ND children, and often needed to emphasise the importance of this. But I would never have suggested a family accommodate these behaviours for a ND young person. These are wants, not needs, and she doesn't know the difference. Not having to be around DD1 is a want, because she doesn't like her and they don't get on and it's unpleasant. It's not a need, and making reasonable and age appropriate accommodations does not = never having to deal with anything unpleasant ever, and having the world always ordered to your liking.

You may have some serious strops when you put in place some boundaries - be prepared to weather the autistic rage storm! But it is possible to come out the other side.

Ditto what @bendmeoverbackwards said , I've been following this thread and re-reading through advice given to the OP because it is also relevant in our house, when tantrums occur! Sometimes it is hard as a parent to know where to draw the line especially when it comes to ND issues, but like others have said if that is the case then needs to seek help. My DD will often say that she's over 18 & it's none of my business, and so if that is the case then yes she needs to get over it or get help to sort it. Sorry for rambling. Thank you so much everyone and to OP for starting this thread.

I tried out some of the advice out yesterday. Admittedly I did make a bit of a hash of it & wasn't able to say all that I wanted to as I felt a bit nervous as to how DD would react but I'd stayed calm & told her we loved her but that learning to get along with others was normal etc etc, it didnt go down well of course and I had the guilt trip of 'you dont show me any love,' 'you're making me feel uncomfortable in my own home' & you just expect me to suck it up...' and then didnt eat her tea at all....which was hard.
It felt like the right thing and I sent her a couple of nice messages today, she seemed okay for now...apart from wondering why I didnt go & see her immediately as I got home as per her text, I just needed the toilet first!! I guess it will take time...

So by not eating her tea she is choosing to go hungry, that is her decision. However , I venture to say that the real reason she chose to not eat was not because she wanted to cause herself discomfort, but because she knew that it would be hard for you knowing that she hadn’t eaten.

She also knows exactly what makes you tick, and every one of your trigger points, and I think you are going to find the next few weeks tough as she pushes every button and tests your resolve.