How are all the NON gina babies doing???

[susanmt]

Well, if they can have a discussion so can we - and i bet thee are a few peeks in to see how awful life is without GF!
My ds is now nearly 10 months, I can hardly beleive it. We are still demand bf through the day and now I have stopped worrying I was the only person doing it we are enjoying it again! He is sleeping through the night from 8-7 which makes me almost human and eating like a horse! We have a wee routine going regarding morning and afternoon feeds and naps which suits us well, and dd (nearly 3) is the best big sister in the whole world, she loves him to bits!
Love to hear how the other babies are doing!

[SofiaAmes]

Claire, just to add to your bliss....My ds is now 25 mo. (also have dd 3.5 mo.) and is the sweetest most well adjusted child anyone could hope for. I am always getting compliments about him and how good he is...And he has had a very similar "non-routine" to yours. He co-slept until 6 mo. and then went into his own bedroom. Although until 18 mo. or so we would put him into our bed if he woke early, he now sleeps happily in his own bed "normal" hours.

[Chinchilla]

Hi Claire - you sound a very happy mum, welcome.

[Claireandrich]

Gosh, what a lovely relief to read all this! I am new to this site and it is so refreshing to hear from 'normal' mums with 'normal' babies. I had a look at GF book opnce but had no idea how I could possibly follow it. My life isn't routine enough, and DD (now nearly 9 months) definietly isn't! LOL!

I enjoy co-sleeping. DD co-slept for ages to start with. Now she sleeps in her cot 'till the early hours and then comes in with me and Dh if she wakes up. She is still in our room, though not through choice. We were supposed to move to a new apartment in August - we are still waiting and now due to move at end of Feb! I am sure she only wakes becuase we disturb her. Before we go to bed if she stirs she goes back to sleep on her own straight away.

DD is perfectly normal, happy, and increasingly independent little thing. But she sleeps during the day when she wants to, her meal times vary depending on what we are up to or if she is at nursery or not, she soetimes falls asleep on Dh's knee at bedtime rather than going to bed awake but who cares!?! I love being a mum, DH loves being a dad. The three of us are so relaxed and unstressed and we have a great time. Doesn't that say it all!

Sorry to go on - wasn't meant to be a ramble really. Just so refreshing here!

[tomps]

How lovely to get that compliment - I think basically what we all need is some reassurance from time to time that we are actually doing a good job, and sometimes identifying with practices laid out in a book (or on mumsnet !)can provide that reassurance. I really identified with one of the examples in pantley about the overtired toddler bouncing off the walls so I do think she talks sense about naps, but you can just take what you need from all these books and ignore the rest of it I think (i do). Who needs Gina anyway ... hurrah for all of us !

[forest]

Tomps, I have taken in what Pantley has said and although not trying to follow it (I'm still not convinced about the importance of daytime naps), I have liked some of her suggestions. I have started putting a lovey as she calls it between us when she is feeding and that does seem to comfort her, I have used gentle noises to lull her back to sleep and so on. I have always been quite consistent with her bedtime routine (apart from when we are off out somewhere) - tea, bath, feed, bed. I just think it takes longer for some babies to get into the habit of sleeping - mine being one of them!! Mind you I hope she doesn't take after her dad - he didn't sleep through the night until he was 3.
I know what you mean about GF and Green wanting to control and dominate. I think that is such an awful attitude. Some of the case examples GF uses makes me cry as it just sounds like child abuse to me. If you wrote the same but instead of a baby you said you ignored an elderly persons cries or a disabled person you just wouldn't get away with it. I very much believe babies are born sociable (how else could the human race survive?!) and are very willing to adapt into our lives but somewhere along the way we as adults have decided babies and children should not be an accepted part of our lives and so we struggle on alone, trying to enforce routines and then giving our babies to other people to bring up. All seems odd to me.
The HV gave me a lovely compliment at dd's 8 month check-up - she commented to the other HV how much I enjoyed being a mum and that dd had really fitted into our life and how happy we both were.
As for co-sleeping I really enjoy having her close to me. I have put the cot next to bed with the side down so we have much more room and to get her used to the idea of her own cot. I feel it is time to wean her out of the bed. But it will be an experience I will always treasure.

[susanmt]

I loved co-sleeping. I couldn't do it with dd as I was on awful antidepressants which made me unsafe. And with ds I have been on a lot of painkillers for my kidneys so haven't been able to do it as much as I liked. But we do always have both of them in bed with us in the morning - ds wakes around 7 and comes in for a great long breastfeed and cuddle, while dd joins us at about half past, has her milk and we all snuggle in. We are SO lucky that dh doesn't have to leave for work until after 8.30, so our mornings are a lovely time together.

[SoupDragon]

I despise co-sleeping as I always got woken up by my incredibly fidgety babies! Either that or when I was feeding, I'd wake in a flood of milk where the little monster had sucked just enough to keep the supply going but wasn't actually feeding - bleagh! Still, as Zebra said, it was better than the alternatives.

I've realised recently what absolute stars my 2 have been with regard to sleeping. Both bf pretty much on demand (on a routine of their choice, gently nudged by me ) and they slept through (8+ hours) from about 4 months. From what I remember, they used to fall asleep on the breast but were generally partially awake when put in their cot. Now 20 months, DS2 is fully awake and lively when put to bed and he sometimes sings himself to sleep over the course of an hour. Sometimes he drops off right away and yes, sometimes he screams if he doesn't think he's ready for bed.

[zebra]

Must confess I am nightweaning my 14 month old, mostly because I don't want her teeth to rot out with night feeeds....

What do you all think of the recent govt?telly? campaign against co-sleeping? There was a lady (Angela something) on the radio last night. She's written some childcare/sleeping book. She wasn't completely anti-co-sleeping, but her book is mostly about how not to. Anyway, she said "My advice is to put the baby down awake in their own cot after 3 months" and there's a whole GF thread going about babies who dont' peacefully go to sleep at that age by themselves. Else I would do it, too if it worked! Does it actually work?? Could you put your baby down awake at 3 months and they just peacefully went to sleep by themselves???

I don't like co-sleeping, but it's a darn sight nicer than the alternatives.

[Cadi]

DD is 14mths, b/fs on demand 5 times in 24hrs ish, wakes for a feed during the night, I'm now an expert at latching her on and going back to sleep while she feeds, it is lovely to have her snuggled in feeding during the quiet of the night.

She now goes into her cot wide awake and drifts off to sleep so peacefully awwwwww When she wakes we take her in to sleep with us. She has the most wonderful sunny and patient temperament, rarely cries, laughs lots and gives wonderful kisses and cuddles.

[tomps]

Forest - also read pantley's no cry book - did you try her 'techniques' at all ? I think big difference between pantley and Gf (and also Dr Green) is the 'them & us' attitude: Pantley has very loving, cooperative approach whereas GF and Green see child as someone to be dominated and controlled. Only read a page or 2 of GF while browsing in bookshop - couldn't believe the detailed instructions "now breastfeed baby 10 minutes each breast while drinking glass of water ... " and so on !!!!! I was neurotic enough [slightly less so 13 months on] without worrying about timing feeds and running a military academy.

[Eulalia]

There are so many books in the world to read and not enough time to read them all so the last thing I am going to do is read a childcare book... okay I have read a breastfeeding one but that was mostly factual and not telling me that I should be doing X at Y time of day.

Not a lover of routines, I see it that we have all our lives to watch the clock, go to school and work, so before school should be a time of enjoyment and flexibility. I love it that I am not working and don't have to get up at a certain time each day. the kids are happy, dd has even less of a 'routine' than ds ever did and is if anything even more of a happier child. If she misses a 'proper' nap then just makes up for it the next day.

[Jimjams]

Janeway- The thought crossed my mind too lol. The thing is there have been so many things that have been missed that it's become a bit ridiculous. I also had to laugh really because my three year olds is autistic and with a bit of understanding is actually quite able to cope with a change in routine (and it can be difficult for children with autism). So the thought of a 6 month old baby having to miss various things because it was a change in routine made me laugh. Unfortunately the grandparents weren't laughing so much :-(

[SueW]

I agree with susanmt about flexibility - that was what I wanted from my DD. I'm sure I've mentioned the 26 beds she slept in, the ?4 countries she visited in ?3 continents, the ?12 flights she made in the first year of her life, etc. (I can't believe I've forgotten all this - it used to roll off my tongue, not need query marks!) Plus constant trips up and down the M1 and visits to friends. I could not have done with a routine.

As I said at the beginning though, it was what I wanted from my baby and luckily it suited us both. I'm not sure what I'd want from a baby now as school runs have to be factored in and I don't have the luxury of being able to lounge around in bed til 9am like I used to!

[Janeway]

JimJams - our ds is wonderfully flexible on where he sleeps so he doesn't prevent us going out when we wish, but we have (shamed face) used the excuse of "his routine" to get us out of difficult family commitments (like spending every evening traipsing from relative to relative when visitng that area of the country for a week) - not that I'm suggesting that's your cousin's plan.

[Caroline5]

susanmt, your children sound truly amazing and I'm most envious! I'm sure your emphasis on flexibility has really paid off. I do think there's a lot of genetics in this too, ie flexible, laid-back parents are more likely to get flexible, laid-back children. Perhaps those who favour the routines of GF and succeed are also more creatures of habit themselves.

[aloha]

I don't have any problem with other people using GF routines if they suit them and their babies, though they were never for me and ds. But he's so perfect (touch wood, cross fingers...) that nothing could make him nicer, more contented, better behaved, more fun or a better sleeper. He is truly my angel. I think it is true that GF babies are the ones who thrive on the routine - the mothers and babies who don't, don't call themselves GF mums. It's like the old paradox about treason. It's always unsuccessful, because if it succeeds, nobody dares call it treason. No GF mum ever 'fails' because if tehy do, they don't call themselves GF mums. BTW a friend who did GF to the letter with DD1, has had to abandon it with her strongwilled DD2 who wouldn't cooperate. Her dh says the FBU are pushovers compared to her!

[forest]

I have read The No Cry Sleep Solution by Elizabeth Pantley and although she is an advocate of routines she makes them sound a good thing to do. Perhaps because she is a mother of 4 who bf on demand and co-slept I am more willing to listen to her advice. Although still too lazy to be bothered following her advice!! Not sure why GF annoys me so much but she does. I think it is that smugness. I wish I had never read her bl**dy book! In fact I wish I had never read any parenting book.

[zebra]

SueDonim: that's the main thing about GF that actually, truly annoys me. If routine keeps you sane, fine!

But GF and her advice come across as so incredibly smug & self-satisfied. When GF was asked on Mumsnet about various problems, like nipple-confusion or failure to thrive, didn't she just brushed aside the query with a reply to effect "Well, none of my babies have ever had problem X--" so therefore it doesn't exist??

[Jimjams]

susanmt- hear hear. We've taken the same aproach as you and it has worked well. Two very different children. DS1 would probably have soped well with being a GF baby, DS2 definitely not, but most nights both are in bed by 8pm latest (and I'm downstairs having my red wine), and as you say they'll do that anywhere.

My cousin has a baby I suspect is GF trained. They live quite a way from us but I havn't seen him (6 months now) yet becuase they've had to miss various family gatherings because it would have interfered with his routine- how mad is that!!!

[SueDonim]

I can't help wondering why, if all the GF babies are doing so well, there are countless threads on Mumsnet bemoaning the fact their baby wake 45 seconds earlier than GF recommends or won't take that extra 2.5mls of yummy sugared water. (Ok, ok, I exaggerate but ykwim!) And of course, those whose babies won't do what GF tells them won't define themselves as a GF mum, will they? What p**s me off is the assumption that GF babies are the only contented babies on this planet. That's complete and utter nonsense. Hey, it's nice having a thread GFans aren't invited to!

[susanmt]

I have also 'worked' at having a flexible routine with my two. I reckoned that, after being happy, the most important thing for me with my children was flexibility. I wanted them to be able to wait for their tea if need be, be able to sleep anywhere, not need blackout blinds etc.
And they are! We travel a lot around the country, and they sleep anywhere, sharing a room with each other or with us (or even with Grandparents or Aunties!), doesn't matter how light/dark it is. This was important to us as we live so far north it diesn't get very dark in the summer at all. Even if something happens to upset the loose routine we follow, they don't get all out of synch - even if they sleep in to 9am (happened once!) they just slot in to what we are doing anf still go to bed at 7.30 - 8. No matter what happens they are contented, and wherever they are, although at 2 3/4 dd now says 'It's good to be home!'- though when we go to Grandparents she says 'It's great to be at Grandpa's house now, can I stay here forever?' (says this wee phrase ever time)
We also suffer from a lack of babysitters as we live in a remote area with no family close by. The flexibility means that we can go out to friends houses, take the children, put them to bed there, then put them in the car and take them home whenever we are finished. It works a treat.
I made sure we did all this from when they were very young so they would get used to it, and they did. I am exceptionally proud of my happy, flexible children who are fantastic wherever we go! I know it sounds smug, but they really are brilliant, and I know I am lucky as they are both quite laid back anyway, but I am sure the way we have done things has added to this.

[Croppy]

Calling all non-Fordies. Time to demonstrate that it IS possible (and indeed common) to have babies that sleep well, are content and generally fab through gradually developing a routine that suits the baby and suits you!

[Demented]

Frightened to say this in case it all comes crashing down but my non-GF baby is doing just fab. He is sleeping 8.00/8.30pm to 8.00am and naps twice a day, about 1 1/2-2 hours in the morning and 2 1/2-3 hours in the afternoon, his appetite is really picking up now and he still b/feeds well (a real triumph after not being so successful b/feeding DS1).

So contrary to what is being said on the other thread I am one non-GF mum who is not unhappy that her child is not on "the routine".

PS will probably be postiing next week in misery about something!

[JanZ]

My non GF baby (now 2 and a bit) was bf on demand for a year, slept through from so early on that I was having to wake him to feed him for a while and now goes down happily at 8, sleeping through to 6.45 weekdays and whenever we get him him up at weekends (we usually go through at about 8/8.30) (he'll play happily in his cot until then).

He does fight his afternoon nap, but as I work full time, I only experience that twice a week. I beleive that at the chilminder's, he has a short nap in the morning and a short nap in the afternoon - but we find that at weekends his routine tends to be a 2-3 hour nap in the afternoon - a habit I am keen to continue! (although he fights it he does need it).

I was determoined from the earliest days to get him in to flexible routines, for example, I never put him down for his nap in his cot: until he was mibile, I would usually wrap him in a shawl and put him under his baby gym, and now he goes in to his travel cot in our bedroom. That way he is comfortable sleeping wherever we put him - and if we're out and about, that includes his push chair.

However, to reiterate what some people have said - a lot of it does seem to be down to the individual baby. He has always been such an easy going baby, we're not sure whose he is!! Although now that he's going through the terrible twos and asserting his individuality (tantrums when we refuse to let him watch Singing Kettle ALL the time!), his resemblance to one or both of his strong willed, intense parents is starting to become evident!

[forest]

I think my last posts have come across that I am fixated on sleep (or lack of!). We have had a difficult week but she has been teething (we ended up in A&E as she had an awful rash and was dehydrated which the doc but down to teething). Last night she slept all evening, had a feed about 10pm and then slept until 5am, another feed, straight back to sleep and up at 8am (well not exactly up as we played in bed until 8.45am) I feel great today!