Webchat with family law barrister Paula Rhone-Adrien on divorce during lockdown and more - Tuesday 9 June at 8.30pm

[BojanaMumsnet]

Hello

We’re pleased to announce a webchat with Paula Rhone-Adrien, a family law barrister with over two decades of experience, practising from Lamb Building Chambers.

Paula will be able to answer questions about the divorce process during lockdown, financial protection, emotional self-care, custody arrangements and domestic abuse.

Paula regularly attends Court representing clients across the social spectrum, from
the Magistrates' Court to the Court of Appeal, in a range of areas including: divorce
and finances; disputes between parents regarding where their child should live or
how much time they should spend with the other; the region/country a child should
live in; child welfare, be that the concerns of social services regarding negligent
parenting (sexual, physical or emotional abuse) or one parent accusing the other;
and domestic abuse (representing the alleged victim or the alleged perpetrator).

Paula is a BBC Expert Voice and has worked with a number of broadcast networks and TV production companies in the UK. You can listen to Paula on this episode on marriage on BBC Woman’s Hour.

Post your questions on this thread or join us live at 8.30pm on Tuesday 9 June.

Please note any answers from Paula will be the general stance taken by the Family Courts as opposed to specific to the individual’s case - and please do not include any names or anything that could identify where the person/child lives.

As always, please remember our guidelines - one question per user, follow-ups only if there’s time and most questions have been answered, and please keep it civil. Also if one topic is dominating a thread, mods might request that people don't continue to post what's effectively the same question or point. (We may suspend the accounts of anyone who continues after we've posted to ask people to stop, so please take note.) Rest assured we will ALWAYS let the guest know that it's an area of concern to multiple users and will encourage them to engage with those questions.

Many thanks,
MNHQ

[BojanaMumsnet]

Thanks so much for doing this webchat @PaulaRhoneAdrien and thank you to everyone who posted a question - we hope you found the webchat helpful. We're going to close this thread to new comments now.

[PaulaRhoneAdrien]

Good evening everyone,

Thank you so much for being so patient with me this evening and so glad to see i could be of some help.

I'm signing off now, but hopefully see you again soon.

Regards

Paula

[PaulaRhoneAdrien]

@Stegasaurusmum

At the start of a separation, he's moving out, leaving me in the f as moly home. Very amicable and not intending to look at divorce yet, or what to do with the house yet, for 2 years at least.
My question is. Should we be doing something now to formalise the agreement that he is giving me cm based on the online calculator, plus half of childcare costs. I'm paying the mortgage entirely from this and my wages, from now on.
He's renting. Eventually we will either have to sell, or I try to find a way to buy him out, or he finds a deposit somehow and let's me take on the mortgage and gets another of his own, I stay till the children are 18 then sell.

Is there a legal or some other kind of document that will give us at least what we have agreed in writing, with a view to looking at it aga in in a year to 2 years?
Just in case things get difficult later on, or he goes back on what he's agreed.

Also, he gets massive bonuses, of around £3000...would I be reasonable to ask him for a proportion of that towards savings for the children for example?

He's already earning twice what I do and will have them 4 nights a fortnight, but travels a lot, I'd just have to forgoe his nights when this was happening. I think it might be reasonable to say he should increase cm when he's having them less nights, if it went down to only 2 weeks in a month that he had them?

It's all this detail that whilst we are in agreement, I'd like to see in writing somewhere, without it getting horrible or awkward.

Good evening Stegasaurusmum,

Thank you.

Is there a legal or some other kind of document that will give us at least what we have agreed in writing, with a view to looking at it aga in in a year to 2 years?
Just in case things get difficult later on, or he goes back on what he's agreed.

• So absolutely you can formalise your separation by having a judge recognise your separation and any written agreement reached (a Judicial Separation), but you can keep this out of Court by simply noting the agreement in writing and getting two separate solicitors to witness the agreement for you.

Also, he gets massive bonuses, of around £3000...would I be reasonable to ask him for a proportion of that towards savings for the children for example? - You can try to reach an agreement on anything, hopefully you will. If you don't you should still reflect in the final document you agree, that you asked for this, but that it was ultimately not agreed, so that when you go back to consider the document in two years time everyone will be clear about what you were able to achieve and what could remain an issue.

I think it might be reasonable to say he should increase cm when he's having them less nights, if it went down to only 2 weeks in a month that he had them? - You're right it may well be. Have you undertaken the online CMS calculation? This tool is really helpful in identifying what responsibility the non resident parent may face financially for their children.

It's all this detail that whilst we are in agreement, I'd like to see in writing somewhere, without it getting horrible or awkward. - DEFINITELY get the agreement in writing and endorsed/signed by independent legal advisors so it can act as, essentially, a contract of separation.

Good luck.

[PaulaRhoneAdrien]

@Momentumneeded

Hi. I would be interested to understand how things work with a direct access barrister v barrister instructed by solicitor.

Also please can you give an overview of how the hearings play out. Does the judge see Form Es in advance. What is the starting point for negotiation if you have v differing viewpoints/ earning potential. Just like to understand the approach taken. Is it assumed 50-50 and then reviewed in terms of needs? How does this work in practice?

Thank you.

Good evening Momentumneeded,

Thank you.

I would be interested to understand how things work with a direct access barrister v barrister instructed by solicitor. - Great question!

Ok generally speaking a direct access barrister will only represent you in Court. S/he will not take responsibility for collating or producing the paperwork necessary for your hearing. This is fine for some people who are happy doing this themselves and just want to be able to pay a one off fee for representation or advice.

You can have some Direct Access Barristers who will 'conduct litigation' which means they essentially act as a solicitor and a Barrister, and so their fees should be slightly less than if you had a solicitor and a Barrister.

Also please can you give an overview of how the hearings play out. Does the judge see Form Es in advance. What is the starting point for negotiation if you have v differing viewpoints/ earning potential. Just like to understand the approach taken. Is it assumed 50-50 and then reviewed in terms of needs? How does this work in practice? - Your assumption is absolutely correct!

So the judge is supposed to see the Form E's in advance, but what this actually means is 5 minutes before you come into Court or even whilst you are sitting there. Judge's are incredibly busy and so don't have time to read papers in such a hearing like this.

There is no starting point for negotiation when your views differ so widely, it really is about stating your case and arguing strongly why you are right and the other side is wrong.

Judge's have a 'wide ambit of discretion' when it comes to deciding how the asset pot of a marriage should be split. The message clearly being given is, i can pretty much come to any decision that i want so i suggest you negotiate or take a massive risk with me!

Good luck

[SarahMcDonald]

Many thanks @PaulaRhoneAdrien

[PaulaRhoneAdrien]

@FitInABit

Hi Paula
I live with my partner. We own a house together. Small mortgage, joint tenants. We have a child together.
I want to separate, sell the house and split the equity. I doubt that he could afford to buy me out. It is likely that he will be extremely difficult. I expect he will refuse to allow anyone to view the house for the foreseeable future due to coronavirus - even when lock down ends.
Do I have any rights if he refuses to allow anyone in the house? He's working fulltime from home so is always here.
Thanks

Good evening FitInABit,

Thank you, this is an interesting question.

As joint owners, you cannot sell the property without his agreement. If you don't have this then that means you are off to Court - sorry. The Court can force a sale and even take the step of excluding your partner from the home if it believes he is attempting to frustrate the Order (for sale).

Please appreciate, this was much easier for me to write than it will be for you to undertake, so prepare yourself for the long haul. Please try and get some initial legal advice as soon as you can, this is not something you want to leave for too long.

Good luck.

[TirisfalPumpkin]

Thank you very much for your answer, I really appreciate it.

[Slingsanderrors]

Thank you Paula, that is helpful

[PaulaRhoneAdrien]

@Slingsanderrors

Hello Paula,
I’m almost 65, retired and hoping to split ASAP from my husband of 15 years. He doesn’t know yet and won’t take it well so I need to get my facts right.
We jointly own a house worth approx £200k (no mortgage) and have about £75k each in savings. No shared children. We both have small pensions that we could survive on (his bigger than mine).

I really want a clean break. My main question is, if I leave (he’s unlikely to) can he be forced to sell the house?

I really can’t afford solicitors fees if I can help it.

Thank you

Good evening Slingsanderrors,

Thank you.

My main question is, if I leave (he’s unlikely to) can he be forced to sell the house?.....yes he can, but that would ultimately mean you heading to Court, because he sounds like he won't be motivated to do anything unless ordered to do so - sorry.

Remember you can attend Court in person, by yourself, you don't have to have a solicitor. You can access a solicitor or a Barrister for legal advice and assistance in running your case if you feel confident enough to do so, so don't let the cost of something put you off getting the job done as quickly and properly as possible.

Have a good evening

[PaulaRhoneAdrien]

@TirisfalPumpkin

Hello, thanks for coming on.

I have a relatively straightforward separation - no kids, no debts apart from mortgage, short marriage, fairly amicable so far. We want to avoid our entire liquid assets getting swallowed up getting solicitors to negotiate the financial split or ending in court. The whole lot (equity plus cash) is worth around 100k.

My question is how do I formalise the informal arrangement we are making, so I'm not left open to later claims? We are splitting roughly along the lines of our deposit contributions, so 80:20 in my favour. This will still leave him plenty to house himself and so far he's happy with it, but I can envisage a scenario where friends/family members get involved and decide it's unfair. Can we get our agreement witnessed or something similar?

Thanks in advance.

Good evening TirisfalPumpkin,

Thank you!

This is a great question.

So in short you can put the agreement in writing and you can attend at either separate solicitors, to show that you have obtained independent legal advice and you absolutely agree the terms, or go somewhere like the Divorce Surgery //www.thedivorcesurgery.co.uk, which is a team of Barristers who will identify one Barrister to work with you both and ultimately lodge the agreement with the Court (After advising you both) so it can be endorsed as if an Order of the Court - protecting you both from the risk of any future claims.

Well done on working so hard to get to this point.

[PaulaRhoneAdrien]

@SarahMcDonald

We’ve been married 20 years, both in our 50s, children of 14 and 16. We’ve lived separate lives under the same roof for 4 years - his choice.

He works abroad for several weeks at a time and when he’s in the UK he works at least 50 hours a week. I have always been the main carer for the children.

He refuses to move out of the house and says that I cannot force him. I CAN afford to buy him out of his half but he will not accept.

The children don’t want to leave their home and move to another school, they have lived here all their lives.

How can I get him to leave?

Are there advantages / disadvantages of waiting until the youngest child is 16?

Good evening SarahMcDonald,

Thank you.

Sadly, as i said earlier, you cannot force someone to leave their home, unless they are a danger. Many separating couples remain living with each other until the marriage has been dissolved and a decision is made about how the assets of the marriage are to be split.

If you went through the divorce process, then the issue will be forced. That issue being, who should leave the house; whether the house should be sold and how the net proceeds should be split? So there will come a stage where a decision will have to be made, whether he likes it or not. However the process has to begin for the question to be put and then answered.

A child remains a child in the eyes of Family Law until it attains the age of 18. This is really about how you wish to manage your life and that of your children. I appreciate they don't want to start a new school, but do they have too?

Good luck

[PaulaRhoneAdrien]

@QueenBee42

Hi, I left my husband in July last year, he didnt take it very well, he wouldnt leave the family home but caused such awful situations in front of our three children( 11, 8 and 4 at the time), i had no option but to take out a loan and get my self a rental property. We were meant to go to mediation but after him getting a non molestation order against me (with no evidence as said by the judge) then losing his temper in court and calling me a liar to the judge I have decided it will be a waste of money. The petition has gone in and we are at degree nisi stage, I have got my solicitor to put a good offer to him, the house to be sold and equity split 50/50, no maintenance for the kids or me (I have them 8 nights/him 6 out of 14nights) and I dont want any of the contents of the house. He isnt answering my solicitors letter, he wanted to go for an occupation order on the house but hadnt served me the relevant paperwork. Can he keep staling this process and he knows I need the house sold to clear my debts and organise a new mortgage so I can leave this very expensive rental. I have also got myself a job and am earning enough to fund myself and our children. Can I force the sale of the house?

Good evening QueenBee42,

Thank you, so sorry that you're finding this process so difficult.

To answer your question, yes you can force a sale and if necessary a Judge can act as if your ex husband and sign all the necessary paperwork to ensure the sale goes ahead. ....and yes it is easier for me to write that than for it to happen. Nothing within the Court process is fast, so knuckle down and prepare for the long haul.

As your husband remains in the property, then it's not unusual for such a party to try and stall the sale, or create such fuss that no seller will consider making an offer, or make an insulting offer in the hope you will just say yes. If that situation arises you can also obtain an Order for your ex to leave so that you can manage the sale of the property.

Good luck

[SoniaShoe]

thank you Paula, that was useful :)

[PaulaRhoneAdrien]

@chikynoonoo

Hi Paula

Recently split with partner and im currently in the family house with children. I would like information on joint mortgage/child maintenance. If ex is paying his half of the mortgage does this alter child maintenance payments?
Thank you

Good evening chikynoonoo,

Thank you.

So if you have undertaken a CMS assessment and maintenance was awarded, then it is possible for the payments to be reduced depending on the amount of mortgage being paid - but it must be the mortgage relevant to the home that the child is living in as opposed to anywhere else.

Have a peaceful evening

[Zisforstripyoss]

Thank you so much for replying Paula. He could definitely afford to move out, I just think he won't! Food for thought, thank you again.

[PaulaRhoneAdrien]

@SoniaShoe

Hi Paula
I am about to sign the agreement for a family lawyer to start getting involved in a separation with my partner (not married, joint owners of family home, 2 DC). Their proposed route is 1. Letter setting out position, 2. Mediation, 3. Courts. The court stage costing me upwards of £30k.

My question is if we did have to get to stage 3 could the cost be paid for out of the proceeds of the house sale and be split? I am worried about going that far and not getting agreement on the house being sold so having to stay with him plus a £30-40k loan to repay! Thank you for any insights you have

Good evening SoniaShoe,

Thank you.

My question is ....You can always agree on how to utilise the net proceeds of the sale of a property, including on the costs of litigation, but get that agreement in writing first!

I don't want to identify problems - what can i say i am a Barrister - but of course be aware that you may still have to find the money up front (who knows when the property will sell), and that legal fees could be more than the figure quoted, for a number of reasons - but primarily, remember that is just a quote. So if you can keep away from Court then I would do...take it from the Barrister!

Have a peaceful evening.

[PaulaRhoneAdrien]

@mum2our4

Husband (together 24yrs, married 8 1/2) left, leaving me having to claim benefits due to being full time carer to our youngest son who still isn't in full time school (age 7). We have teenager about to attend SEN college course. Two older children at university. We both went back to uni but he then did ok in his career but even when I worked two jobs mine always worked around him and the kids. I've mostly worked part-time since having children.
He took a year to pay reasonable maintenance and is ignoring my request for pension details. How can I get the best support for myself and protect the childrens needs? Youngest may well be long-term dependent.

Good evening mum2our4,

Thank you for your question. First of all can i commend you for achieving all you have whilst caring for your children - two of which are at university!

What i am not clear about is whether this matter is in Court, if it was, then your ex would absolutely have to provide information pertaining to his pension credits and you could be entitled to such.

Not necessarily an issue for the Court, but have you made a child maintenance claim yet (CMS)?

Once again if the matter was in Court then i could see how you would consider making an application for spousal maintenance, although it is difficult for me to say whether you would be successful without knowing what the figures were.

I absolutely think you should be booking an hour's worth of time with a solicitor so that you could receive some proper advice about what your potential entitlements could be arising out of the end of your marriage. Solicitors can set a fee for you so you don't have to worry about the clock ticking and of course you don't have to feel obliged to use them after you have received that hour's worth of advice.

Shop around, but trust your instincts too!

Promise me you will explore your options?!

Have a good evening

[edwinbear]

Thank you so much Paula, I really appreciate your time and thoughts.

[PaulaRhoneAdrien]

@edwinbear

Hi Paula,

I wanted to ask if, as the sole earner, I would be likely to have to pay spousal maintenance to unemployed DH if he and I divorced?

He is 53, made redundant in November and simply refusing to look for another job. I am 45, earning just over 6 figures. 2 DC’s (10 & 8) married for 16 years. DC would stay with me and I can just about manage the household bills (including school fees), but not if I had to pay him maintenance.

I am presuming the court would expect the family house to be sold and the equity split (given he has no means to house himself), or I would need to buy him out of his share if I wanted the DC and I to remain in the house?

Many thanks

Good evening edwinbear,

Thank you.

So in general, on the basis of the information you have given me - yes. However, that then begs the question how much? The Court asks what are the needs of the relevant children and the parties and then whether there is sufficient to meet those needs and if so how.

So although my general question was yes, you can see how features of your specific case are already starting to whittle down the prospect.

As you are likely to be the primary carer for the children and responsible for their financial and emotional care, this does make a difference. Particularly if the Court accepts that your ex is failing to maximise his earning capacity by getting a job..which you can understand it would if your ex was fit and healthy to work.

In respect of your last paragraph - spot on. However, this can also be a delicate topic because you may well want to argue that you require the lions share of any net proceeds because you will be rehousing the children, so the 50/50 starting point has once again shifted in your favour.

You're so welcome.

[Time4change123]

Paula. Thank you so much. I will sleep peacefully tonight.

[PaulaRhoneAdrien]

@Time4change123

Hi Paula
Split from husband 5 years. Horrific divorce with allegations made by him and ended up in family court. Allegations resulted in SS being involved. Thankfully all was proven untrue and order states that children live with me and spend every other weekend with dad. The marriage was abusixe and involvement from women's aid.

Kids are happy and well but even after all this time, I am looking over my shoulder and frightened to put a foot wrong. Any mistake I make I panic that he will take me to court to try to get the children to reside with him.
We will need to agree on schools of choice for the children in the near future and I already know he will make this difficult. One of my children are quite anxious and I don't want a load of difficulty surrounding the choice of school. I have moved a little away from where we previously lived. Children have been able to stay in primary school they were in. I just know already that he will cause difficulty because he will want to control the school choices and has a way of kind of grooming my kids to get his way

I am beside myself with worry all the.time. my questions are:

Am I right that unless, for example, my children were unsafe with me for any reason, it is unlikely that the court would just change who the kids live with?

And if we cannot agree on school choices moving forward, would we need to then go back to court for a specific issue?

I just need some reassurance as I am constantly worried.

Thanks

Good evening Time4change123,

Thank you.

Because i am nearly out of time i have copy and pasted your questions to ensure I don't miss anything.

- Am I right that unless, for example, my children were unsafe with me for any reason, it is unlikely that the court would just change who the kids live with?

You are absolutely right, so please stop worrying!

And if we cannot agree on school choices moving forward, would we need to then go back to court for a specific issue?

Again, you are absolutely right, that would be the application that would need to be made. However, let's start by being clear what school you would like the children to attend and why and then approach the topic in writing to your ex. Do you have parents or a friend who could assist? Obviously try to settle the matter first.

I just need some reassurance as I am constantly worried.

Please don't worry....and please remember what a magnificent job you did in not only escaping from this person, but in succeeding in becoming the primary carer of your beautiful children. So even if you can't see how amazing you are, clearly the Court did.

Have a peaceful evening, you deserve it!

[Bigpooh13]

Thank you so much. Very helpfull.
Advice on board and ready to action.been together 19 years and married for 7 I brought up his 3 kids.

[PaulaRhoneAdrien]

@Billionnairewannabe

Hi Paula
My abusive ex chose to terminate contact 7 years ago, despite a very generous contact order. Fast forward to lockdown and he's taken my 14 year old who had suddenly started self-harming. Within 5 days of having him, he filed for full custody (citing years of emotional abuse by me!) and no contact with me. Son has been refusing to see/speak to me. Classic case of Parental Alienation. First hearing last week Judge mentioned PA and ordered full CAFCASS S7 report. I have been begging social services, CAHMs etc to step in but they haven't.
How do I persuade CAFCASS that PA is what is going on here and do they have a proper format for dealing with it? Can I get CAFCASS to act with urgency as it also transpires that immediately prior to the self-harm, the father was the last person to speak to him? No-one has investigated this, despite my repeated requests. Social Services just treating it as custody battle whereas I am treating it as child protection. Son is still with him until CAFCASS report, and has been completely isolated from me, his older brother and extended family.
I sincerely hope the courts don't just take everything at face value and have a better understanding of PA than social services!
Many thanks for any advice.

Good evening Billionnairewannabe,

I hung my head when i read this.

Are you represented?

Ok so let me be careful as this matter is before the Court.

Let me take each of your questions in turn.

Sadly, you cannot tell Cafcass how to view a case. They understand that it is your case, but whether they accept it or not is another matter. I am disappointed that they haven't considered your view bearing in mind what you have said above and in light of the history of the relationship you had with your ex and your beautiful son.

Sadly you cannot get Cafcass to act with any urgency. They work to their own deadlines and even when a Judge directs them to report by a certain date, if they can't then they wont!

Have you not even been offered the opportunity to write letters, send gifts and cards to your son? If not why not?!

Did anyone speak to your son's school? I appreciate i am asking more questions than you, but you can see my frustration.

Ok so once Cafcass come back with their report (which is normally 12 weeks, unless it is just a welfare assessment(?) which is normally about 4), then you will have a further hearing where the Judge will consider the Cafcass recommendations. Until then we can physically do very little - it all rests on the production of that report.

In the meantime please steady yourself, this is going to be a long fight.

Parental Alienation, whilst a recognised syndrome, can only be found upon the assessment of an expert, normally a psychologist. If you are seeking the return of your son, then it is likely that such an expert will need to be involved. I would also like you to explore what a rule 16.4 Guardian is and how the separate representation of your son would be needed in a case where you are clear the father cannot speak on his behalf.

I sincerely wish you luck.

[Delbelleber]

Thank you for your response @paula

[PaulaRhoneAdrien]

@Zisforstripyoss

Hi Paula,

I want to seperate / divorce but I know my husband will not move out as he sees the house as "his" - even though it is in both our names. I am primary carer of 2 children and work part time. Where do I stand and are there any legal options to get him out of the house or would it be on me to move out with the children into a rental?

There is no domestic violence, infidelity etc but he will not be amicable.

Thank you.

Good evening Zisforstripyoss,

Another really good question thank you, it's a very common problem and a lot of separated parties actually remain residing in the same home until the conclusion of the divorce and ancillary relief proceedings (how the assets of the marriage will be divided) are decided. You can either agree how this should happen, with the assistance of lawyers, or the Court will have to make a decision.

Ex partners are often advised not to leave the family home for fear of losing some 'right' over it, but that simply isn't true. On the contrary if your husband was to move out he could actually show that he was now having to manage a second home - the family home and his - which some husbands use as a reason to reduce any maintenance for the children or ex spouse.

If he seriously can't afford to move out then sadly you will be stuck with each other as there is no law that can force someone to leave their home, unless they were posing a risk, and you don't suggest that he is.

I can't advise you whether to move out into a rental property, because that is only a decision that you can truly make. However, that decision is not only about you, but the children too...would that be right for them? Further, if you plan to sell the property it is sometimes more prudent to remain in the home so you have an immediate eye on the management of the sales process as opposed to being one or two steps removed.

Have you thought about making him an offer - if the finance options are available to you? I appreciate you work part time, but may be you have family who could assist? Otherwise, get on with putting the house on the market so that you can force the physical separation between you.

Good luck