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WEBCHAT GUIDELINES 1. One question per member plus one follow-up. 2. Keep your question brief. 3. Don't moan if your question doesn't get answered. 4. Do be civil/polite.

MNHQ have commented on this thread

Facebook Live about talking to kids about staying safe from abuse with NSPCC
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RachelMumsnet · 22/08/2018 21:47

We’re running a facebook live with NSPCC about talking to kids about staying safe from abuse. The NSPCC have developed programme called Speak out. Stay safe delivered in primary schools across the UK. Volunteers visit schools where they run workshops and assemblies to teach children how to stay safe from abuse and what to do if they have any concerns. The NSPCC are also running a campaign called PANTS that teaches parents how to talk to young children about staying safe from sexual abuse in an age appropriate and non-scary way.

Lidl say: "'Last year Lidl UK employees voted to make the NSPCC their new national charity partner for a three year period. During this period, this partnership will aim to raise £3 million to keep 1 million primary school children safe through the NSPCC’s Speak out. Stay safe programme. This vital programme helps to empower a generation of children with the knowledge they need to stay safe. With at least 2 children in the average primary school class having suffered abuse or neglect, it’s vital that the NSPCC has the resources to visit primary schools across the UK to teach children that abuse is never OK."

Join the NSPCC live next week on Thursday 30 August at 12.30pm on Mumsnet Facebook or post up a question on this thread that we will put to the NSPCC during the live stream. We’ll link to the stream next week on this thread.

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Househelp123 · 28/08/2018 16:49

OK I will start. Does the NSPCC think that teenage girls should be able to have single sex spaces for changing rooms? Or do the NSPCC think that girls should be 'educated' that 'girl' can also mean 'child with a penis who identifies as a girl' and a 'child with a penis who identifies as a girl' is fine to share intimate spaces with young females?

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AsAProfessionalFekko · 28/08/2018 16:51

Keep them off Facebook...

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LadybirdsAreBirds · 28/08/2018 17:34

According to advice given to schools by GIRES and Mermaids, teachers must affirm a (Primary or Secondary Age) child's belief that they were 'born in the wrong body'. What is your view on this advice, and can you see any safeguarding concerns around this?

Furthermore, advice given by these organisations is not to disclose the child's gender-questioning to their parents. What is the NSPCC's view on this?

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IAmLurkacus · 28/08/2018 21:21

Is the NSPCC as concerned as I am at the massive upsurge in teenage girls using binders? Do the NSPCC class this as self harm? If not why not?

Excellent questions from previous posters which I’m very interested in the answers to.

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ArcheryAnnie · 28/08/2018 23:05

I was a NSPCC supporter (politically and financially) for years and years. I have never been able to get them to answer these three questions:

You say on the "transgender identity" page of Childline that trans people should be able to "use the toilet that they feel comfortable in". Where should the girls who have been abused go to the loo, if they are not comfortable sharing toilets with adult males, or indeed boys their own age?

You say that trans people should "be described by the words that they prefer (such as "she" or "he")". Abused children (and indeed abused adults) often take a long time before they are able to speak the truth about their abuse, having been manipulated by their abusers. Do you think that abused children should be forced to describe their male abusers as women?

Why do you persist in featuring a spokesperson on your Childline "transgender identity" page who filmed themselves describing lesbian and gay people as "deviant"?

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Mamaryllis · 29/08/2018 03:14

Another mum of teenage girls who is concerned that schools and youth organizations are putting our daughters at risk by forcing them to share sleeping facilities and changing rooms with teenage boys who selfID as girls. In the case of girl guides, the policy is that parents will not be informed if adult males who identify as transwomen will be present at all, let alone overnight, nor if teenage boys identifying as trans girls will be present. The males identifying as females will be given choice as to where they sleep/ undress, but females will not.
How can a previously sex segregated organization allowable under EA2010 change their policies, rendering it impossible to allow girls and young women to assert boundaries? Is this not teaching girls and young women that they do not have the right to assert boundaries around privacy?
Can you also comment on the DBS process and how this is carried out to ensure that males who change their names and apply for leadership positions as ‘women’ are unable to hide previous convictions in their ‘deadname’. Can you comment on how safeguarding could be impacted by gender and name change? Are transwomen mandated to supply all previous male names or is this voluntary? How is compliance ensured?

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LadybirdsAreBirds · 29/08/2018 07:04

Are you aware that on your trans identity page that you definition of trans is counter to that of Stonewall's? Stonewall include cross-dressing under its 'trans umbrella'.

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IncrediblySturdyPyjamas · 29/08/2018 07:17

Can we discuss if NSPCC back the use of our Sturdy Pyjamas to prevent rape of girl guides, now that their policy lets 'transgirls' [aka boys] in [including into the same sleeping spaces], and keeps it a secret from all parents.

How do we get these girl guides into their Sturdy Pyjamas, whilst simultaneously not telling them why they have to be worn [because it is a secret].

Or should they be part of the standard uniform?

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InflagranteDelicto · 29/08/2018 08:29

I think all my questions have already been asked, as a parent of girls and as a GG leader. Interested in the answers NPSCC give, especially the ratio of fluff and bullshit to actual fact.

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Sotiredallthetime · 29/08/2018 08:54

I would like to know the difference between a boy and a boy who indentify as a girl ?

No child can have a GRC, so all children are biological and legally their birth sex.

There must BE a difference as a standard boy is subject to many safe guarding rules, where as a boy saying he feels like a girl is subject to none !

How does declaring an unverified internal feeling mean safeguarding rules can be ignored ?

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InflagranteDelicto · 29/08/2018 09:01

My son is a scout, and also has asd. The scouts have a near identical trans policy. If my son had to share a tent with a transboy he would be extremely uncomfortable, but due to his asd would be unable to articulate his discomfort. What would the nspcc advise be done in this (currently) hypothetical situation to safeguard both children?

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CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 29/08/2018 09:14

I'd like to add my voice to this. Parents on MN are increasingly worried about how safeguarding is being ridden roughshod over in the race to pander to an extreme trans ideology. How is the NSPCC offering any leadership here?

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NotAnotherJaffaCake · 29/08/2018 09:38

Can you run a campaign on how we can innoculate our children against grooming behaviour?

And then can you explain how a lot of the advice I would expect to be given about how to guard against grooming behaviours directly contradicts the advice about transing children?

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carceralfeminist · 29/08/2018 09:40

Do children even understand the difference between biological sex and gender identity?
How does the blurring of these two concepts affect a child's view on self, reality, and what is actually medically possible?
How will children be allowed to speak up about their concerns if they do not understand the language of "trans," and if they do - are scared of being called "hateful"?
Does this not enforce some undue psychological burdens on a child?
Who has created your trans advice (and do they have any connection to David Challenor)?
What safeguarding analyses/impact assessments have you done?

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NotAnotherJaffaCake · 29/08/2018 09:41

Also, the advice of the NSPCC is taken extremely seriously. You have an important role to at in child protection.

Given that's the case, how on earth was such shoddy advice regarding trans children allowed to become "official"? Where is the evidence for this policy, which just reinforces harmful gender stereotypes, and works against best safeguarding practice? And how will you convince us it won't happen again? Such incompetence and poor thinking cheapens the name of the NSPCC.

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tiredandweary · 29/08/2018 09:42

GIRES in their training materials for adults working with gender non conforming young people specifically advise adults in school NOT to share a child's disclosures - in clear breach of 'Working Together' and every school's safeguarding and pastoral care policies. Does the NSPC agree that 'transgender' children should be placed outside the protection of safeguarding rules in this way? What might be the consequences of this?

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Moanslice · 29/08/2018 09:49

The 'A' in PANTS is for 'ALWAYS remember your body belongs to you'. This appears to be a reference to drawing bodily boundaries and informed consent. How do the NSPCC think that this is compatible with the Girl Guides Trans policy which states that girls and parents will not be informed if a male member decides that he wants to share overnight accomodation and facilities?

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tiredandweary · 29/08/2018 09:52

Second question (hope this is allowed?)
Cornwall have issued guidelines for their schools that state the following:
A parent or guardian may not always be the most supportive
or appropriate person to assist the young person through
transitioning. It may not be necessary for a parent or guardian
to provide permission for a Trans pupil or student to take
steps to transition as there may be issues raised of Fraser
competence if parents will not consent


Does the NSPCC support the removal of parental rights / responsibilities without recourse to the courts as this document suggests?
Does the NSPCC recommend that schools enable children to 'transition' without informing their parents?
What might be the consequences for children / teenagers if schools and organisations encourage them to leave their families in order to transition?

Sorry that's three questions but oh so important.

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Datun · 29/08/2018 09:57

Could you advise how little girls who are told that men are women can Speak Out about this and Stay Safe?

I told my daughters, in an absolute emergency, to approach a woman rather than a man, because a woman is 98 times less likely to be a predator but now they are told there is no difference. And if they point out the difference, they are bigoted. And, like their mother, could be told to die in a fire. Can you suggest how they can Speak Out and Stay Safe under those circumstances?

Can you suggest the wording and approach to use so girls can Speak Out and Stay Safe if they object to sharing toilets with boys who identify as girls? Rather than be vilified and persecuted for being transphobic?

What is your opinion of drag queens teaching kindergarten children about transphobic hate speech? Which is what their 'singing along with the children' is designed, by their own admission, to do?

Drag queens who, when they are not teaching children that men are women, have names like Poppin' Cherry. Do you know what that means?

Can you explain the Girls Guides policy that forbids boys sharing showers and overnight accommodation with girls. But reverse that policy, if the boy asks them to based on his feelings.

Without telling the parents of the girls. Can you please explain how a 10 year old girl who is told to share their shower with a 14-year-old boy can Speak Out and Stay Safe when their own parents have relentlessly spoken out and been ignored.

Can you explain to that little girl why her mum didn't know that she was being forced to share a shower with a teenage boy?

Can you explain why the language surrounding genitalia is becoming blurred. Why male genitalia is being called female and that children are being taught that biological sex and genitalia are irrelevant.

Can you really not understand that we are raising a generation of girls who do not know how to assert their boundaries, because they are being told their boundaries are not theirs assert. That the language they should be able to use is being removed.

And if they do Speak Out, the one thing they are then, is Not Safe.

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Datun · 29/08/2018 10:03

Oh crikey, I've just realised it was one question. Okay HQ. I'll take one from my litany.

I'd like to talk about the girl guides, but other people have done that, so it's a waste of a question. So here is my question:

Can you explain why the language surrounding genitalia is becoming blurred. Why male genitalia is being called female and that children are being taught that biological sex and genitalia are irrelevant.

Can you really not understand that we are raising a generation of girls who do not know how to assert their boundaries, because they are being told their boundaries are not theirs assert. That the language they should be able to use is being removed.

And if they do Speak Out, the one thing they are then, is Not Safe.

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frazzled1 · 29/08/2018 10:38

Does the NSPCC believe girls have the right to access sex segregated health facilities, toilets and sports teams, excluding all male born young people?

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MaryAnn888 · 29/08/2018 11:32

They raised very important question!

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stillathing · 29/08/2018 14:17

What is the NSPCC's view on the increase in the number of girls presenting as trans in schools? Should teachers and therapists be affirming that they were in fact born in the wrong body or should they be interested in what might have prompted this change? In every single case I know of personally, there has been a background problem leading to the girl wanting to be trans, ranging from acrimonious divorce to trauma and child abuse. How should teachers and therapists be supported so that trauma is not overlooked in trans presenting children due to adults' fears of being labelled transphobic or bigoted?

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SturdyEarmuffs · 29/08/2018 20:06

Placemarking as there's loads of great questions already asked. 👍

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LemonJello · 29/08/2018 20:27

From the NSPCC underwear rule:

Your body belongs to you. No-one should ever make you do things that make you feel embarrassed or uncomfortable.
No means no and you always have the right to say “no’. You’re in control of your body and the most important thing is how YOU feel. If you want to say ‘NO’, it’s your choice.

Guidelines produced for schools in Scotland (approved by Scotgov and endorsed by children’s orgs) recommend that male bodied children be allowed to share sleeping accommodation, toilets and changing rooms with girls.

If any girl or her parents feel uncomfortable, embarrassed or distressed by this, and “say NO” (as NSPCC encourage, above), the first response recommended by the guidelines is to remind them of “inclusion, equality and respect”.

Do he NSPCC consider that this response, particularly the implication that saying NO is antithetical to respect, aligns with the principles of the underwear rule?

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