Surely Unis should be F2F as default again now?

[user1497207191]

DS rang last night, really upset/angry. Another of his modules is now online only. That's ALL 3 of his current term modules now fully online. What the hell is going on? I thought covid restrictions had now officially stopped, so what possible reason is there for a Uni to being moving onto Online at this moment in time? He thought it was bad enough in January when he found out 2 of his 3 modules were online, but did get some comfort in knowing 1 would be face to face.

He's sent a very strong complaint to the dept.

He's in year 2 and had an awful first year with literally nothing face to face for the entire year, and thought it had turned a corner in September (start of year 2) when everything was face to face.

[damekindness]

In my institution it's not anything to do with lecturers not wanting to teach face to face ( It's way more enjoyable than trying to be some sort of cable TV presenter from your dining room table) It's far more to do with not having the classroom/lecture theatre space to fit in the massive expansion of students.

[poetryandwine]

The strike sucks, OP, but it is a reflection of workers' desperation. Another tension that long predated Covid and was allowed to fester. Another reason I am glad to be out, as the choice of whether to strike would have been excruciating.

[user1487194234]

I strongly believe that Unis should be back to face to face
And definitely not on strike

[Mushypeasandchipstogo]

@poetryandwine Thanks for that link.

[PerpetualOptimist]

I think your post @worstofbothworlds is very helpful in understanding some of the difficulties you and others face on the teaching frontline. On the one hand, a possibly supine and unimaginative central or departmental management is closing off opportunities for a more 'can do' F2F approach. On the other hand, students are getting confusing messages about the relative focus on F2F or remote delivery and so you end up with a spectrum of demands and expectations. I can quite see it is exasperating and difficult. Whilst 'Covid circumstances' have been dynamic, it is the responsibility of the university and departmental leadership to set the tone, explain 'the stance' and so the parameters for individual action. The presence or absence of such leadership is probably what differentiates the better performing from the poorly performing universities and departments. I have a lot of sympathy for your DS's situation @user1497207191 and hope he can channel his frustrations into an effective case that forces his department to reflect on the decisions it has recently taken and change its approach. Your support will help him and your efforts to gather intelligence on what is happening elsewhere is a really practical step.

[poetryandwine]

For PPs interested in the question of refunds, this is arbitrated by the Office of the Independent Adjudicator (OIA). It was a hot topic about a year ago: www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-56245074

The gist of the article is that, surprise, it's complicated. There have been some small, partial successes but nothing dramatic is mentioned.

@PerpetualOptimist, thank you for conceptualising the competing demands of the current environment so beautifully.

[BramblyHedge]

The uni I work at is F2F and has to be as very equipment dependent

[Mushypeasandchipstogo]

I would love to know from someone more knowledgeable if we are able to claim back any of the fees. I certainly don’t think that my son’s Uni is giving good value for money.

[Mushypeasandchipstogo]

We have the same problem with our son who is also in the second year of his degree course. I only found out at the weekend that the lecturers are on a semi strike and that he only has lectures three days a week.
Surely we should have some of his fees back? This is NOT Lancaster either.

[worstofbothworlds]

I was giving F2F seminars in October 2020 and then was told I couldn't use my office (where only I sit) in April 2021 so I am not quite sure what we as lecturers are supposed to do. Students complain when something isn't online, I set a piece of coursework based on an in person class and then 10 people complained that they wanted to do it but hadn't been to the class (which was discussion based so they couldn't catch up on a video).

We still aren't having in person exams, either, so I've had to write a huge extra set of exam questions (quantitative so it's not a case of "add an extra essay question) because otherwise we get plagiarism - if exams are remote, we can't reuse questions.

And as for "you have 20 years to catch up", the part time and fixed term teaching staff will probably never catch up.

[JenniferBarkley]

I do however think it's incredibly cheeky that f2f lectutes, or even smaller tutorials are deemed too much of a risk for the lecturers and academics but it's fine to expect students and lower paid invigilators to sit exams in person. Either having a large group of people indoors breathing all over each other for several hours is too dangerous or its not.

There's nothing cheeky about it. Lecturers are employees and will have individual risk assessments where necessary. Individual students can go to disability services if they also need adjustments. The assumption is that unless told otherwise both students and staff can attend in person.

[poetryandwine]

[quote user1497207191]@poetryandwine

But many academics lost 18 months of a career and are also in a bad way.

Yes, I understand that, but the academics will have 20+ years of their career, so can make up a "lost 18 months". Students normally are only studying for 3 years, so 2 of those badly impacted by lack of face to face teaching can seriously disrupt their Uni experience that they'll never get back.[/quote]
I take your point, OP. One example of a lack of give in the system is the high fees being paid by the DC of posters here for a substandard experience. Another is that the academic workload in recent years has increased hugely. Piling COVID on top of this is why people are exhausted.

But I agree with the academics here that in person exams simply prioritise the need for robust invigilation. I am not slow to pick up on double standards in this country but I don’t think this is one of them.

[PerpetualOptimist]

Many teaching and support staff at universities will have had a thoroughly rotten time over the past 23 months and many have had to work really hard in difficult situations in lockdown. However, that is also true for many students and their families. As pp have highlighted, two issues are coming to a head.

One is the disconnect between the corporate pitch made to prospective students and what is actually happening on the ground. This is not acceptable given the 'once in a lifetime' choices student have to make regarding university and course selection. The reality is that no one has clear information on the current state of play - who is making real efforts to deliver and who is not. Unless the HE sector gets its collective act together, intrusive measurement and reporting of actual 'delivery' will come. Many academics will hate it and the only way to forestall that is to be more honest with prospective students.

The other issue is a too frequent subordination of students' interests to the needs of the university, departments and individual staff. To have three modules online, as flagged by OPs son, could be the product of a series of unfortunate incidents; on the other hand it could be the sign of a department whose priorities are out of kilter.

What is most disappointing to observe is universities exploiting the power imbalance between themselves and their students to justify an approach which is about making excuses, pointing to the small print but still expecting students/parents/tax payers honour their side of the contract. 18, 19, 20, 21 year olds are having to pluck up the courage to make individual complaints against big institutions staffed by articulate, experienced people; the very people who also will evaluate their performance in assessments and exams. All the while, the student loan is accumulating and the clock is ticking in relation to the 'window of opportunity' that is their university years. I suspect discontent is far wider than many realise.

Over time, it may become clear who has really rolled their sleeves up to do their best by their students and who has not. The fear is that it will come too late for current cohorts.

[CovidCorvid]

I do however think it's incredibly cheeky that f2f lectutes, or even smaller tutorials are deemed too much of a risk for the lecturers and academics but it's fine to expect students and lower paid invigilators to sit exams in person. Either having a large group of people indoors breathing all over each other for several hours is too dangerous or its not.

I do get this but just playing devil's advocate the students can and will be offered the choice of an interruption if they feel unsafe so they have choices.

The university as an employer has a duty of care to their employees and has to risk assess. If OH say an employee has to work from home there's not much the uni can do. Yes, they could say well can someone else cover that person's lectures but people don't have the workload capacity to do it.

Also it may be a question of expertise. For instance for one of my modules you need a professional qualification to teach it and I'm the only person in the university who can can teach it. Luckily I'm happy to teach f2f and am still doing so.

Our students though are keen on online stuff. And oddly enough 3 or 4 weeks ago were complaining they have too much f2f and they don't feel safe (it was going round the cohort like wildfire) and were asking me to move some stuff online.

[purplehairlady]

@user1497207191

DS rang last night, really upset/angry. Another of his modules is now online only. That's ALL 3 of his current term modules now fully online. What the hell is going on? I thought covid restrictions had now officially stopped, so what possible reason is there for a Uni to being moving onto Online at this moment in time? He thought it was bad enough in January when he found out 2 of his 3 modules were online, but did get some comfort in knowing 1 would be face to face.

He's sent a very strong complaint to the dept.

He's in year 2 and had an awful first year with literally nothing face to face for the entire year, and thought it had turned a corner in September (start of year 2) when everything was face to face.

Does he mean lectures or tutorials?

In my time no one attended lectures and trend was towards them all being online. For the reasons others have highlighted it creates a lot of extra work.

Tutorials should be face to face though, their effectiveness greatly decreases if not imo!

[poetryandwine]

@bumblingbovine49, I am shocked that you would (wrongly) classify me on a public forum, basing this on a superficial (mis)reading of my post. Because I find the whole situation so depressing, I recently left a senior lectureship at a Russell Group uni for a good opportunity. One of the key moments was being tasked to review numerous online course materials across various disciplines. I felt this was based in an institutional paranoia around TEF and it was one of the last straws.

For other PPs, I wish I had clarified my complete support for CV employees who must WFH, and made more of my real sympathy for your DC. I agree a lack of honesty is infuriating.

But academics are honestly On. Their. Knees. The job has always been intense and the rewards have never been financial, considering the training, but that is also true of some other public sector employees. A difference is that people only see the tip of the academic workload and I do wonder whether this is informing some of the posts? If the system had a bit of ‘give’ or flex left I really think COVID would have landed more softly.

[NewModelArmyMayhem18]

I'm under the impression from DS (final year now) that hardly any students attend f2f lectures/seminars, even when they're offered?

[thevassal]

@CovidCorvid

The university minister said the other week he wants to hear about cases like this and that he will personally pick up the phone to the vice chancellor and ask what’s going on.

Ooh OP bring out the big guns and do this.

Although I do sympathise with the pps stating that when they do put lectures on in real life half the students don't turn up. I lived with 2 girls who both got good 2.1s despite never (and I mean never, one worked full time!) went to any lectures in person and just relied on the online PowerPoint slides, and this was in 2008 so not a new or a covid thing!

I do however think it's incredibly cheeky that f2f lectutes, or even smaller tutorials are deemed too much of a risk for the lecturers and academics but it's fine to expect students and lower paid invigilators to sit exams in person. Either having a large group of people indoors breathing all over each other for several hours is too dangerous or its not.

[CovidCorvid]

The university minister said the other week he wants to hear about cases like this and that he will personally pick up the phone to the vice chancellor and ask what’s going on.

[DrunkenUnicorn]

@user1497207191

It's Lancaster. Sounds like he's just been unlucky with his module choices. His flat mate who is doing a similar degree, chose different modules and all 3 of his are still at least partially face to face. The real killer is that they've also just announced that the exams will be in person, not online, so they're happy to do the lectures/seminars etc online but still expect physical/in person exams at the end of it.

Ah… was hoping you’d not say Lancaster…

It’s DS’ possible firm choice… not politics and international relations by any chance?

If a big portion of it is online then that’s a massive negative for him when weighing up his choices

[Comefromaway]

That's where it's useful to have a dh who either teaches in her institution or has friends who do!

But in performing arts if you don't attend you are out

[DoNotTouchTheWater]

@Comefromaway

Well my daughter is postgrad now but the only time she has ever missed any lectures or classes (practical subject) was when she was ill or had a medical appointment that couldn't be re-arranged.

With the best will I’m the world, how would you know? She’s not going to tell you she didn’t bother going to a class, is she?

The actual attendance stats on most programmes show that students attending everything is not what happens.

[AlwaysColdHands]

Just to stress that we’ve not all been at home with our dogs: as a snapshot, I bent over backwards and worked double my contracted hours from Sept to Dec 2020 to provide high quality online AND face to face teaching. The f2f stuff was in small, socially distanced groups and so I repeated consecutive sessions to keep numbers down.
Hardly anyone attended.

Attendance is still now seen by some as ‘optional’ “Can’t make it today, can I join online?” Sorry, no.
Can I get an extension….because Covid? (Vague). Sorry, no.

It’s really unacceptable that some students still don’t have any face to face teaching, but it’s different in every institution and some students are still trying to play the covid rules.

In this instance a complaint should definitely be made.

I’ve absolutely loved getting back to the classroom seeing my students normally since September

[JenniferBarkley]

We've been F2F since Sept, but a few colleagues are teaching online due to genuine personal need - pregnancy, an immunosuppressed child, serious health condition etc. Has your son perhaps been unlucky with his modules? Miserable for him, but may just be unfortunate circumstances.

The real killer is that they've also just announced that the exams will be in person, not online, so they're happy to do the lectures/seminars etc online but still expect physical/in person exams at the end of it.

I don't understand this. Why is he unhappy with in person exams? It is difficult in my subject area to do decent online exams - bluntly because it's too easy for students to cheat. We have seen huge numbers of cases going before panels compared to before the pandemic, and that's just the ones we're catching. We have seen students getting high marks last year suddenly struggling to pass now they have to actually sit in an exam hall and do their own work. In person assessment is crucial for academic integrity.

[Comefromaway]

Well my daughter is postgrad now but the only time she has ever missed any lectures or classes (practical subject) was when she was ill or had a medical appointment that couldn't be re-arranged.