Any thoughts on the future of Erasmus?

[GlitterBiscuits]

I wondered if anyone had any insider knowledge on what might happen?
Anyone with DC thinking about doing it?

My DS wants to go to an EU Uni in September 2021. I think it's in jeopardy at the moment

[PresentingPercy]

I hope she’s not a Sophie??? However that’s great news and it appears staff have sorted it out as predicted. She should have a great time.,

[MarchingFrogs]

DD has just forwarded the email she got this afternoon from her UK university (Birmingham), thanking her for her patience and confirming her Erasmus+ placement at a French University for September, which is a relief.

[shrill]

@DazzlePaintedBattlePants

Disclaimer: I am a Remainer academic researcher who benefits massively from EU Horizon 2020 and ERC grants.

But I do think that Erasmus is not the best use of EU funds, certainly from a U.K. point of view. The students we have sent on Erasmus have been middle class, white Sophies and Ed’s, who’ve already had large amounts of exposure to Europe already. Erasmus has been a great experience for them, but hardly transformative. I’d feel far happier if there was any serious attempt at outreach for the demographics who don’t usually participate.

We probably look as if our own teens fall into your Sophie/Ed category, but what you probably have not seen is that because (like a great number of parents) we place education as high priority when it comes to ensuring we can encourage and help our yOungsters have been able to help them get the most out of their courses along the way.

[QueenoftheAir]

But seriously, it was not "a jibe" - it was a genuine question about who would do the massive amount of extra work to achieve what you're suggesting. If you don't work in HE, then you probably aren't aware of the work that goes into establishing solid and productive exchanges. But work it is. In a system which is being systematically starved of funding by a government with an ideological commitment to NOT paying for HE as a national common good as @ListeningQuietly says upthread.

You seem to be quite resentful of universities ...

But we work through international collaborations. Any decent research lab will have undergrads, postgrads, post-docs and permanent academic staff from all over the world working in it. That's how researchers developed COVID vaccines so quickly - huge international collaborations, sharings of data, sharings of methods and so on.

If you go to a Planck Institute in Germany, you will find researchers (at all levels from undergrads on) from all over the world. Ditto the USA, the UK, and elsewhere.

And we collaborate internationally just as much in the humanities, and not only in the study of languages other than English. The knowledge economy is global, and should be free to circulate.

[QueenoftheAir]

I expect the government to make money available to the universities to facilitate the work and employ the staff needed


Excuse me while I fall off my chair laughing.

[PresentingPercy]

I expect the government to make money available to the universities to facilitate the work and employ the staff needed.

I know academics use the scheme but there are people that do not need to go from the undergrad population. It might be that the money goes to fewer people. I don’t like that at all but it would make it easier. EU fees for masters have been cheaper but few universities offer them taught in English. You can get a loan to stay here and you don’t have to pay it up front. You might never pay if back either. Also masters degrees are optional. They are not a necessity or every grad would have one.

I resent the jibe about not working in HE. You might have noticed that very many people are doing work they didn’t sign up to do. It’s the way of the world right now. My cheap jibe is: at least you have a job. Millions now haven’t.

[QueenoftheAir]

If ours are £20,000 and the French universities charge the equivalent of £12,000, then there is a problem. But not an insurmountable one

Have you had any involvement in organising or negotiating these in HE, @PresentingPercy ? If it's a problem, what/how do you think it will be surmounted? By whom? Who will undertake the added extra workload? Especially as the details of the Turing scheme (as published in the Times Higher) indicate that there will NOT be funds available for university staff to make visits to explore possibilities or set up exchanges, or do staff exchanges. The Erasmus scheme enabled EU academics to undertake academic exchanges for the purpose of sharing best practice in teaching and research with partner universities across the EU.

[ListeningQuietly]

My child looked at doing a particular masters degree which is taught in London and (in English) in an EU country.
UK fees for 2 years = £18,000
EU fees for 2 years = EE1,800
So even with the cost of visas and getting there, we would have been better off with the EU.

Countries like France and Germany and Austria and Spain treat higher education as a common good
the UK no longer does

[PresentingPercy]

Science Masters/research can be done abroad after any uk based science degree. Does not have to be done as an undergrad.

[PresentingPercy]

No. I do not think it is only MFL. However no science grad has to study abroad as part of the degree and complete a compulsory element abroad. Choosing a degree with a year abroad because you fancy it is simply not the same as MFL degrees. Therefore MFL grads must come first in any scheme because it’s a requirement. Studying science abroad isn’t. It’s that simple!

[PresentingPercy]

Surely EU students studying here will also pay international fees so an exchange between say, French and uk citizen students, would not be impossible if international fee levels are similar in the universities. If ours are £20,000 and the French universities charge the equivalent of £12,000, then there is a problem. But not an insurmountable one. The new scheme would have to pay the grant as before. This makes it perfectly possible for the less well off to go. Parental contribution stays the same and if no parental contribution, the new scheme makes up the money if necessary taking flights and cost of living into account.

[ListeningQuietly]

Erasmus MFL

When my child did Erasmus, all of the Brits she was in contact with were doing sciences.

I'm not sure why Brits think that working and studying abroad is only for those doing languages

Look at the staff of the Crick to see the reality
or any big science research team ...

[PresentingPercy]

The reason better off students tend to do Erasmus is because lots of them are doing MFL courses at university. They are the ones who, largely, must do a year abroad as part of their course. It’s not a nice thing to have on the cv. It’s a vital part of the course . We all know larger numbers of MFL grads are middle class and comp numbers sitting MFL exams are going down. It’s viewed as too difficult. Therefore there must be a pecking order in who accesses the successor to Erasmus if there is not enough places/money to go round. I bitterly regret Erasmus going but I also bitterly regret dc from less well off backgrounds snubbing MFL.

[2magpies1pigeon]

It seems to be based on what university you go to. So EU students at a UK university wouldn't be eligible for Erasmus.
I agree that the loan system is a problem. I'd be interested in my DC studying abroad, but there would be no access to a student loan for either fees or living costs.

[mushroom3]

UK students going to the EU will now be liable for international status fees at european universities. If fees aren't covered it will mean it will be an expensive experience unless the overseas fees come under the student loan scheme (and maybe that's how they will make Turing cheaper than Erasmus). Does anyone know whether UK students who are also EU nationals would still be able to access Erasmus? It's not just the funding but also that they have support while abroad.

[2magpies1pigeon]

Or is it simply not supposed to be an exchange scheme? One-sided academic schemes exist, or have done in the past.

[2magpies1pigeon]

Is the idea that the other countries sponsor their students to come over? Presumably everyone pays into the Erasmus pot, though not in proportion to the benefit their students receive?

[QueenoftheAir]

Just coming back to this thread to note that today's Times Higher has a piece about the Turing scheme. A couple of points from the artile:

But the Turing scheme will not contribute towards the costs of students coming to the UK, a Department for Education spokeswoman confirmed. This is a “dangerous” approach to take, according to Kostis Giannidis, president of the Erasmus Student Network. “Exchange is by nature reciprocal,” he said.

and

Nor will it fund the tuition fees of UK students going abroad, or European students coming to the UK. This leaves UK universities needing to strike fee waiver agreements with overseas partners, which may be financially tricky if there are big price discrepancies.

So not really much like Erasmus at all, then ...

[DazzlePaintedBattlePants]

I disagree that UK students were reaping the benefits of studying alongside Erasmus students who came to the UK to study, and would love to see some serious research on quantifiable effects.

At my uni, the cohorts are very international and I would say it’s a minority of research groups that are dominated by UK staff. I don’t think I’ve ever worked in a group that had a significant majority of British staff. Our undergraduates are, by and large, used to having peers from all around the world.

I dare say that those universities which have students who could benefit the most from Erasmus students (students who are constrained to going to the closest university, or first in family to attend university) are those least able to attract them (the kind of European student likely to engage in Erasmus won’t be looking to go to a low ranking ex poly), nor will those students be necessarily looking to engage with the courses on offer at lower ranking universities.

[ILikeTrains]

Where does it state that there will be no exchanges? Literally the second paragraph on the Gov.uk website states:

The Turing scheme will be backed by over £100 million, providing funding for around 35,000 students in universities, colleges and schools to go on placements and exchanges overseas, starting in September 2021.

Would that not suggest a reciprocal approach?

[QueenoftheAir]

As several of us have said, and as is widely argued (beyond MN) by those of us who teach in universities, the value of the Erasmus scheme was the exchange. The Turing scheme does not seem to be offering that to EU students to come to the UK.

UK students, all too often naive products of this insular culture, learn a lot by studying alongside international students. It's such a loss for them.

The Tory obsession with the evils of migration, once again.

[TonTonMacoute]

Interesting article here about Erasmus. The author is quite critical of it and agrees with what PPs have said about it being youngsters from better off middle class families who benefit most.

Unfortunately he doesn't go into much detail about the Turing scheme although he seems very positive about it.

[2magpies1pigeon]

We organised our language exchanges privately, via Lingoo. It's usually very straightforward. We had one disaster, but lots of successes.
I do agree though that most UK families would not be prepared to send their children to a family they've never met, without any back-up from the school. Which is a pity.

[MarchingFrogs]

DD is doing a 'with French' (as opposed to, just doing a 'year abroad') degree and as such, was only eligible for the Erasmus options. As she says, though, no point trying to find someone to pester about it in the middle of the Christmas holidays.

[TodgerStrunk]

twitter.com/Cardwell_PJ/status/1342917640797483008

What a waste.